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Patrick Brannan
Joined: 03 Mar 2019
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: Power-Sonic LiFePO4 (Hypersport) |
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Hi,
TLDR; The PAL50N18L LiFePO4 (Hypersport) is rated at 128 W/Hr. I tested at currents between 12.5 and 20 amps and found the capacity was at least 260 W/Hr. At well under $200 is this a fantastic bargain in batteries, or have I missed something?
I’m building a Marquart Charger with an electrically dependent engine using SDS EFII. I settled on a single alternator / 2 battery system. I forget Bob’s schematic # but it’s one of them. My objective is to have a comfortable amount of flying time in the event of an alternator failure. To compensate for a failure of one battery or the other, each of the batteries needs to be able to run the engine for a reasonable amount of time. I believe that with a single boost pump operating I will have a current consumption of a little under 10 amps. The Marquart Charge is an open cockpit biplane.
Anyway, I took a plunge and bought a Power-Sonic PAL50N18L LiFePO4. Yesterday I started testing it, and I want to share the results for 2 reasons. 1) Help out somebody looking for a battery like this. 2) Double check my experimental results to make sure they are correct.
For my test I bought a cheap battery monitor from Amazon and used a Lectron 10A hobby charger. The battery monitor uses a 75mv - 100A shunt. The battery monitor’s current readings were verified by the voltage drop across the shunt, my multimeter hooked up in series at less than 10A, and also the Lectron charger’s AH numbers. If the battery monitor says that you took out 20.3 Ah the Lectron will put very close to 20.3 Ah back in. So even though I’m using cheap stuff, I think it’s fairly accurate.
I loaded the battery with a 400W inverter running a work light and a box fan. Pictures are attached.
Does this all make sense? I think a LiFePO4 that pushes twice the rated Ah is unusual. I will say that Power-Sonic says the battery weights 4 lbs. It really weighs 6. The folks at PLPBattery were great. When I told them the battery was overweight they weight every other Power-Sonic battery. According to them, this is the only model that is overweight.
Pat
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01D6E023.F86EDAA0[/img]
[img]cid:image002.png(at)01D6E023.F86EDAA0[/img]
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: Power-Sonic LiFePO4 (Hypersport) |
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On 1/1/2021 9:53 AM, Patrick Brannan wrote:
| Quote: | v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> (at)font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}(at)font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}
Hi,
TLDR; The PAL50N18L LiFePO4 (Hypersport) is rated at 128 W/Hr. I tested at currents between 12.5 and 20 amps and found the capacity was at least 260 W/Hr. At well under $200 is this a fantastic bargain in batteries, or have I missed something?
I’m building a Marquart Charger with an electrically dependent engine using SDS EFII. I settled on a single alternator / 2 battery system. I forget Bob’s schematic # but it’s one of them. My objective is to have a comfortable amount of flying time in the event of an alternator failure. To compensate for a failure of one battery or the other, each of the batteries needs to be able to run the engine for a reasonable amount of time. I believe that with a single boost pump operating I will have a current consumption of a little under 10 amps. The Marquart Charge is an open cockpit biplane.
Anyway, I took a plunge and bought a Power-Sonic PAL50N18L LiFePO4. Yesterday I started testing it, and I want to share the results for 2 reasons. 1) Help out somebody looking for a battery like this. 2) Double check my experimental results to make sure they are correct.
For my test I bought a cheap battery monitor from Amazon and used a Lectron 10A hobby charger. The battery monitor uses a 75mv - 100A shunt. The battery monitor’s current readings were verified by the voltage drop across the shunt, my multimeter hooked up in series at less than 10A, and also the Lectron charger’s AH numbers. If the battery monitor says that you took out 20.3 Ah the Lectron will put very close to 20.3 Ah back in. So even though I’m using cheap stuff, I think it’s fairly accurate.
I loaded the battery with a 400W inverter running a work light and a box fan. Pictures are attached.
Does this all make sense? I think a LiFePO4 that pushes twice the rated Ah is unusual. I will say that Power-Sonic says the battery weights 4 lbs. It really weighs 6. The folks at PLPBattery were great. When I told them the battery was overweight they weight every other Power-Sonic battery. According to them, this is the only model that is overweight.
Pat
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Double the rated total energy sounds like a mislabeled battery.  Supporting that would be the 50% greater weight than spec. The PS datasheet for that model says that the 'cutoff' point should be 12.8V, and their discharge graph shows a 7.5A load discharging to ~12.8V at around 50 minutes. That '128WH' number means that even though the model number makes you 'feel' like it's an 18 AH battery (using typical SLA nomenclature), it's really a 10AH battery. If I were electrically dependent, I'd treat that number as the absolute best case, and de-rate by close to 50% to account for variations in quality, load, aging factors, etc.
EFI, including the fuel pump, *might* consume as low as 10 amps, but I'd want to verify that in actual operation; not by 'faith'. The fuel pump alone will consume somewhere between 4.5 & 8 amps, depending on model. To the engine electrical consumption, you need to add whatever additional loads needed in the plane.
FWIW,
Charlie
 Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:51 pm Post subject: Power-Sonic LiFePO4 (Hypersport) |
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| Quote: | | Double the rated total energy sounds like a mislabeled battery. |
In my experience, PowerSonic has been
pretty solid in specifying their products.
I would expect some variation of delivered
energy over a spectrum of test loads, but
not by much. LiFePO4 discharge plots are
exceedingly 'flat' with respect to load.
Watt-Hours is a measurement of energy delivered
at the test-value load. This is difficult to measure
without some pretty light footed data recording
techniques. The WestMountain Radio CBA series
battery analyzers are a fine example of low cost,
battery ENERGY measurement tools.
The technique calls for MEASURING load current to
some degree of accuracy (unless you're using a
precision, bench test load) along with battery
voltage.
You measure each value at say, 1 second intervals,
the multiply volts x amps = watts. You now have
a measured packet of energy delivered for a 1-second
interval of time. You SUM that increment to previous
measurements already in storage.
When the test termination voltage is achieved (typically
11.0 volts) then stop the test, add up all the watt-seconds
in storage then divide by 3600 to get watt-hours AT THAT
PARTICULAR TEST CONDITION.
Note that the PC680 is spec'd to deliver 132 WH
for 30 minutes under a 23A load. LiFePO4 with
similar capacity will be in that ballpark.
Note too that as the test current goes DOWN,
the delivered energy goes UP. This is because
less energy is lost to the battery's INTERNAL
RESISTANCE at lighter loads.
A similar thing happens with LiFePO4 but
with less spread across the spectrum of test
loads. This is due to the much lower internal
resistance of the LiFePO4 chemistry. LiFePO4
family of discharge curves are almost coincident.
Your test results suggest a review of test
methodology and instrument capability. I suggest
that the PowerSonic spec sheet is pretty much
gospel. Your bench tests should produce results
pretty close to specs.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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Patrick Brannan
Joined: 03 Mar 2019
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Power-Sonic LiFePO4 (Hypersport) |
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Year and a half late. Just saw the message. Individual replies apparently do not come to my mailbox.
I have a high degree of confidence that my measurements were accurate. It's not hard to put a known load on a battery, measure the current, and run a stop watch. With an inexpensive battery monitor it's child's play. Then charge with a good quality charger and see what goes back in. They matched (minus small charging loss). I also had a dialog with the distributor who spoke to Power Sonic people.
An inverter with incandescent bulbs of varying sizes is the best way i found generate predictable loads.
There is obviously no guarantee that future releases of this product would match those measurements. But for a while they were selling a fantastic bargain.
I have tested two other PowerSonic Hypersport batteries since. All exceed spec by a fair margin, but none by so much. I even ran a few in a refrigerator. Don't ask me why.
Be aware that most LiFePO powersport batteries are designed for cranking amps, not capacity. Any battery where capacity is critical needs testing.
My conclusion so far: Power Sonic puts out quality products and takes their published specs seriously.
This particular battery was almost 2 lbs over stated weight which likely means they had to use larger cells than planned in order to meet a deadline.
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Eric Page
Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245
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Patrick Brannan
Joined: 03 Mar 2019
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Power-Sonic LiFePO4 (Hypersport) |
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There are still a couple of the old model floating around out there. The shelf life on a lifepo stored properly is supposed to be at least 10 years, but I have no idea how was that verified.
Be aware that the specified weight is incorrect. The real weight is a little over 6lb. That's probably where the extra capacity comes from. I forget the exact number. But it weighs more than 4.63 lbs.
I believe that the demand for quality LiFePO4 powersports batteries is huge and PowerSonic is probably adjusting to this market rapidly. The powersports batteries market (infrequently used equipment in general) is massive. You can put lifepo in your motorcylces, lawn mowers, atv's etc and throw away your trickle chargers. Everything just starts. Every time.
That doesn't necessarily make them all appropriate for aviation use. Just food for thought.
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: Power-Sonic LiFePO4 (Hypersport) |
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| Quote: |
That doesn't necessarily make them all appropriate for aviation use. Just food for thought. |
Just be wary of the term 'SVLA equivalent' . . . I
went toe-to-toe with major players in the lithium
market a couple decades ago. When the battery is
your sole energy source for comfortable termination
of flight there is no SLVA equivalent. Capacity is
capacity is capacity . . .
That capacity should be defined by design goals
and periodically TESTED to insure that such
goals are maintained.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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