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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:09 am Post subject: Bing 54 |
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Hello Kolbers , I am finishing up building my Firefly and I have the motor to deal with I sent the Rotax 377 to Arizona and had it changed to CDI and an electric starter installed Al the seals and gasket replaced I now have taken the carb apart and cleaned it I am putting it back together and realize that even though I had the same type of carb on my KXP that I flew for ten years I had never taken the enrichment circuit apart can anyone tell me how it should be rigged I looked it up on YouTube and they have a different circuit that is well explained but mine is a piston type and the one they have had a square flat circuit on the side any diagram would help thank you Chris Davis
KXP 503 492 hours
Sent from my iPhone
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Bing 54 |
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There are two types of chokes, one uses the lever and the plunger and the other type uses a remote cable with a clip-on sealer end. Both work on the same principle of opening a bypass circuit to let in extra fuel. (So really they are not chokes at all, but enrichment circuits)
Attached are two pictures, hopefully they are good enough to be self explanatory. Something I just noticed: the cable end in the attached picture is enormous, and must have just been put there for - something. The actual cable end that fits into piston 7 is WAY smaller and will fit down through the adjuster.
Something we learned last year with the 277 on the Firefly: there is a 3/32" thick rubber flat surface on the part that seals up against the brass opening for the bypass. (the "gasket") Part #7 on the remote system, part #8 on the lever system.
Over time, that rubber can get worn out or damaged, and then it no longer seals, which means you are now dumping extra fuel in at all throttle settings. Which makes it impossible to get the engine to jet properly. Once I found the problem it was an easy fix: grub out the old rubber and grind a sharp edge on the end of a piece of metal tubing the same diameter as the piston, punch a piece of rubber out of any suitably thick rubber scrap and force it into place in the end of the piston. All it has to do is allow/stop fuel flow.
As far as how you actually rig it; the nut 3 screws on the adjuster 2, screw the adjuster into closure 4. Stick the cable through the rubber 1, and down through the adjuster and out through the closure, slide the spring over the cable, then the cable goes through sleeve 6, and then hook the end of the cable into the slot in piston 7. Let the spring snap the sleeve down into place around piston 7 and it will hold the cable in the piston. Adjusted correctly, actuating the cable will raise the piston & open the fuel bypass in the carb.
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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Ducati SS
Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Bing 54 |
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First a description of how an en
richer works and then what I fear is a functional drawback when applied to our aircraft.
A true choke mechanically restricts air flow into the venturi. This method is somewhat tolerant of various throttle settings.
The enricher is a completely independent circuit which relies on high vacuum ahead of the slide to pull fuel up from the float bowl where it exits ahead of the slide. It takes a very small rise of the slide to destroy the necessary vacuum and defeat the enricher circuit. I ran into this repeatedly as a motorcycle snowmobile mechanic. Customer would state that their new machine was wonderful with the exception that it would not start cold. I would say lets go give it a try, as I watched they would inadvertently open the throttle just by the smallest amount, this resulted in a no start. I would then tell them to take their hand completely away from the throttle and use one finger to push the starter button, instant start. Sooo my concern with these engines pressed into service as aircraft power plants is that we need to run a fairly high slide position to eliminate gearbox chatter. I really doubt the universal effectiveness of enrichers, Like many snowmobiles I installed a pump type primer on my Firefly and disabled the enricher. Very effective and easy starts. Just position the primer within easy reach as it will require an additional pump or three as the engine warms.
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Ducati SS
Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Bing 54 |
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I should add that anyone using a psru with a clutch could probably use an enricher. For the remainder of us we have a prop load as soon as the engine starts which requires the higher slide position. Sadly it is almost universal to mislabel an enricher as the choke which it surly is not.
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stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:49 pm Post subject: Bing 54 |
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An enricher is definitely not a choke even when Bing labels the lever
with the word "Choke" on it. A misnomer for sure.
However, I don't quite understand when you said the enricher does not
work unless the throttle is closed.
I have used the enricher to keep the EGT down during partial power
descents. Unloading the engine by reducing power during descent often
causes my EGT warning to go off. I pull a little enricher to keep it
from running so lean and it cools back down. This seems to indicate that
at least some fuel is being drawn in with the slide at about half throttle.
Of course starting and half throttle are two completely different things
and may not effect the enricher in the same way.
Stuart
On 1/16/23 13:35, Ducati SS wrote:
| Quote: |
First a description of how an en
richer works and then what I fear is a functional drawback when applied to our aircraft.
A true choke mechanically restricts air flow into the venturi. This method is somewhat tolerant of various throttle settings.
The enricher is a completely independent circuit which relies on high vacuum ahead of the slide to pull fuel up from the float bowl where it exits ahead of the slide. It takes a very small rise of the slide to destroy the necessary vacuum and defeat the enricher circuit. I ran into this repeatedly as a motorcycle snowmobile mechanic. Customer would state that their new machine was wonderful with the exception that it would not start cold. I would say lets go give it a try, as I watched they would inadvertently open the throttle just by the smallest amount, this resulted in a no start. I would then tell them to take their hand completely away from the throttle and use one finger to push the starter button, instant start. Sooo my concern with these engines pressed into service as aircraft power plants is that we need to run a fairly high slide position to eliminate gearbox chatter. I really doubt the universal effectiveness of enrichers, Like many snowmobiles I installed a p!
ump type primer on my Firefly and disabled the enricher. Very effective and easy starts. Just position the primer within easy reach as it will require an additional pump or three as the engine warms.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509957#509957
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:22 am Post subject: Bing 54 |
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An enricher is definitely not a choke even when Bing labels the leverwith the word "Choke" on it. A misnomer for sure.However, I don't quite understand when you said the enricher does notwork unless the throttle is closed.
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the carburetor is two carburetors in one an inch and a half throat carburetor add or about 15 to 1 mixture ratio for main power. and about a quarter inch carburetor at 20 to 25 to 1 mixture ratio for helping to start. With the main carburetor closed and you open the enrichenor it will empty the plus or minus one tablespoon of gas from the enrichinger bowl very quickly to give you the equivalent of an accelerator pump. If you leave the enrichenor open during an idol it will be so rich it'll start to run rough if you leave it open during flight it'll be a little bit richer instead of running 15 to 1 mixture it may be 16 or 17 to one mixture and that'll still depend on the throttle setting. Once the enriching or float bowl has been emptied then the only fuel that can get into the enriching or carburetor has to go through a little jet in the bottom of the float bowl and that limits it.
Clear as mud Boyd
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:26 am Post subject: Bing 54 |
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This is coming from a 4stroke guy, but perhaps he meant that the enricher is *ineffective* with the throttle open more than a crack. I'd expect there to be a limit to how much extra fuel the enricher can supply, so with an open throttle and little airflow, you're going to get a lot leaner ultimate mix.
On 1/20/2023 11:21 AM, B wrote:
| Quote: | An enricher is definitely not a choke even when Bing labels the lever with the word "Choke" on it. A misnomer for sure. However, I don't quite understand when you said the enricher does not work unless the throttle is closed.
-------------
the carburetor is two carburetors in one an inch and a half throat carburetor add or about 15 to 1 mixture ratio for main power. and about a quarter inch carburetor at 20 to 25 to 1 mixture ratio for helping to start. With the main carburetor closed and you open the enrichenor it will empty the plus or minus one tablespoon of gas from the enrichinger bowl very quickly to give you the equivalent of an accelerator pump. If you leave the enrichenor open during an idol it will be so rich it'll start to run rough if you leave it open during flight it'll be a little bit richer instead of running 15 to 1 mixture it may be 16 or 17 to one mixture and that'll still depend on the throttle setting. Once the enriching or float bowl has been emptied then the only fuel that can get into the enriching or carburetor has to go through a little jet in the bottom of the float bowl and that limits it.
Clear as mud Boyd
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byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:03 pm Post subject: Bing 54 |
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4 stroke... 2 stroke... The carb dont care and works the exact same if using premix fuel on 2 stroke...
If using regular gas and an oil injector on 2 stroke, leaving the enrichener open will cause the fuel mix to be rich and the oil to be lean.
The enrichenor is generally used to start a cold engine. When the engine is cold all the fuel does not vaporize as well as it does in a warm engine. So by pulling cranking air flow through a enrichener carb (1/4") the airflow is faster and because it has a richer mix plus the accelerator pump action,,, mixed with the limited vaporization due to the cold helps things start.
Once running close the enrichener and run on the main jet, the engine should never run lean on gas unless the main jet / jet needle is plugged or partly so.
If you want more info let me know. Give me your number & I'LL call you
Boyd
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