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Wiring Looms

 
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Area-51



Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 2:48 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Have over 40yrs experience in automotive and now swapped to aviation; what an absolute joy!!

Regarding wiring looms.. what spec wire are people using in aircraft looms, and what is being used as the outer protective sheathing? Is it a specific shrink wrap fire retardant material?

Thanks in advance.

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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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Location: Newport News, VA
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
My wire notes are in the footnote of this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s0xBEMmMzSyXW6S1vXLYCvqcWpzj2znVb23ZVKWSLfI/edit?usp=drivesdk

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Area-51



Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Thanks John.. will look for a related spec chart based on your info; found it all a bit difficult to comprehend regarding number codes there... maybe they are related to a specific aircraft kit product

I get the AWG and Tefzel sude of things.. Are there any known Tefzel shrink wrap sheathing products out there for finishing off custom wiring?

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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
I made a tutorial on fabricating avionics wiring harnesses which I posted on the TeamKitfox forum. Your questions are answered in Part 2 of that thread (the third post).

https://teamkitfox.com/Forums/threads/11670-Avionics-Wiring-Harness-A-Tutorial

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:02 pm    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Mil Spec 22759/16   aka Tefzel wire. The wire you find on oxygen sensors is the same. The copper wire is tinned to prevent corrosion. The Tefzel insulation withstands high heat [150 C] and abrasion. Under the cowl you can use Mil Spec 22759/11, which has silver, rather than solder coating the copper strands. The insulation is Teflon, rather than Tefzel. This wire withstands higher heat [200 C] than 22759/16. The Teflon insulation is softer, so it can be bent into tighter radii. Many avionics shops will use the /11 wire behind the instrument panel, to allow tighter loops in the harness. One caveat with the /11 wire, don't secure it to tightly or use Nylon wire ties, as this can saw through the soft Teflon insulation over time. FYI, I have found it easier to get the /11 wire in colors.

Charlie


On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 06:57:13 AM EDT, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:




--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>

Have over 40yrs experience in automotive and now swapped to aviation; what an absolute joy!!

Regarding wiring looms.. what spec wire are people using in aircraft looms, and what is being used as the outer protective sheathing? Is it a specific shrink wrap fire retardant material?

Thanks in advance.

Read this topic online here:

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:10 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
At 05:48 AM 4/25/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>

Have over 40yrs experience in automotive and now swapped to aviation; what an absolute joy!!

Regarding wiring looms.. what spec wire are people using in aircraft looms, and what is being used as the outer protective sheathing? Is it a specific shrink wrap fire retardant material?

Thanks in advance.

Designers of TC aircraft go out of their
way to avoid a necessity for mechanically
shielding wire bundles. When external
covers are found on the drawings, there's
a special risk for mechanical damage to
the bundle . . . wheel wells, exposure to
foot traffic, etc.

There are lots of things in airplanes
that would suffer operational compromise
if they came into antagonistic contact
with foreign bodies. Bus bars, control cables . . .
and yeah, wire bundles.

First rule of thumb is to conduct the failure
modes effects analysis to identify risk and
then eliminate it. If not possible/practical,
then add 'shielding'. Shielding is rarely
found to be useful.



Bob . . .

////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================

In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:28 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Quote:
Under the cowl you can use Mil Spec 22759/11, which has silver, rather than solder coating the copper strands. The insulation is Teflon, rather than Tefzel. This wire withstands higher heat [200 C] than 22759/16. The Teflon insulation is softer, so it can be bent into tighter radii. Many avionics shops will use the /11 wire behind the instrument panel, to allow tighter loops in the harness. One caveat with the /11 wire, don't secure it to tightly or use Nylon wire ties, as this can saw through the soft Teflon insulation over time. FYI, I have found it easier to get the /11 wire in colors.


Teflon over silver plated wire is not
recommended for general airframe wiring
or appliance fabrication. I don't think
our wire bundle shops even had Teflon
in inventory . . .

Had a conversation about Teflon with
with Greg Richter of BlueMountain fame
starting on page 38 of this document:

https://tinyurl.com/2tbearkn




Bob . . .

////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================

In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.

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Area-51



Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Thanks guys for all the input there...

The Tefzel i'm aware of, and its my preference... but what options are people using to wrap the bundle in? Are there any fire retardant shrink wrap products available?

I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but brittle over time.

I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics?? And i'm aware of the purpose for twisted pairs, and how they affect CANBUS signals.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 7:46 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>

Thanks guys for all the input there...I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but brittle over time.

The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
wires is necessary because of high extrusion
temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
with Teflon insulation.

Quote:
I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics??

Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
the well crafted installation of qualified
appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
do not require shielding of any kind. You
will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
They are rare.

I can't remember the last time I found it
necessary to shield any wire.



Bob . . .

////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================

In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.

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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 8:01 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
I will throw in one asterisk * ...
Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their data bus wiring.
OK, 2 asterisks...
Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.


-Jeff

On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:




At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com>

Thanks guys for all the input there...I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but brittle over time.

The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
wires is necessary because of high extrusion
temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
with Teflon insulation.

Quote:
I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics??

Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
the well crafted installation of qualified
appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
do not require shielding of any kind. You
will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
They are rare.

I can't remember the last time I found it
necessary to shield any wire.



Bob . . .

////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================

In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.

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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 8:19 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
It is common practice with a/c audio wires, but it rarely does anything helpful. The reason  is that a/c audio is 'low impedance'; around 600 ohms, and is far less susceptible to picking up radiated noise than the wiring in a home stereo, where the low level stuff is ~50k ohms impedance. 
Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics are just hoping that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service complaint.
Charlie
Audio tech, and service tech, in a couple of past lives
On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:06 AM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:

Quote:

I will throw in one asterisk *  ...
Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their data bus wiring.
 OK, 2 asterisks...
Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.


-Jeff

On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:




At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>

Thanks guys for all the input there...
  


Quote:
I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but brittle over time.

   The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
   wires is necessary because of high extrusion
   temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
   conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
   with Teflon insulation.

Quote:
I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics??

   Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
   electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
   the well crafted installation of qualified
   appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
   do not require shielding of any kind. You
   will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
   in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
   They are rare.

   I can't remember the last time I found it
   necessary to shield any wire.



  Bob . . .

                   ////
                  (o o)
   ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
   < Go ahead, make my day . . .   >
   < show me where I'm wrong.      >
   =================================
 
   In the interest of creative evolution
   of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
   on physics and good practice.






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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 8:43 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Interesting observations.  But from a practical point of view...
Charlie, that may be the case, but I would not want to be in a situation where something is not working correctly, possibly due to some kind of interference, and having to explain to manufacturer's tech support that I did not comply with their recommended procedures. It could give them license to say: "Well it's on you, then".
Same thing goes for customers. I would have trouble trying to explain to a customer why I didn't comply with the manufacturer's recommendations.


-Jeff

On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 09:24:35 AM PDT, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:




It is common practice with a/c audio wires, but it rarely does anything helpful. The reason is that a/c audio is 'low impedance'; around 600 ohms, and is far less susceptible to picking up radiated noise than the wiring in a home stereo, where the low level stuff is ~50k ohms impedance. 

Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics are just hoping that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service complaint.

Charlie
Audio tech, and service tech, in a couple of past lives

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:06 AM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I will throw in one asterisk * ...

Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their data bus wiring.

OK, 2 asterisks...

Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.
-Jeff


On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:


At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> Thanks guys for all the input there...
Quote:
I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but brittle over time.
The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated wires is necessary because of high extrusion temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible with Teflon insulation.
Quote:
I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics??
Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally, the well crafted installation of qualified appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle) do not require shielding of any kind. You will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft. They are rare. I can't remember the last time I found it necessary to shield any wire.
Bob . . .   ////   (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================= In the interest of creative evolution of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based on physics and good practice.





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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 9:42 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
If one is buying brand new avionics with a bunch of digits to the left of the decimal point, then obviously it makes sense to follow the mfgr's installation instructions, for exactly that reason.

But now we're talking about what works for 'interpersonal relations'; not what works.
Wink

On 5/4/2023 11:42 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

Quote:
Interesting observations.  But from a practical point of view...


Charlie, that may be the case, but I would not want to be in a situation where something is not working correctly, possibly due to some kind of interference, and having to explain to manufacturer's tech support that I did not comply with their recommended procedures.  It could give them license to say: "Well it's on you, then".


Same thing goes for customers.  I would have trouble trying to explain to a customer why I didn't comply with the manufacturer's recommendations.




-Jeff



On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 09:24:35 AM PDT, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> (ceengland7(at)gmail.com) wrote:




It is common practice with a/c audio wires, but it rarely does anything helpful. The reason  is that a/c audio is 'low impedance'; around 600 ohms, and is far less susceptible to picking up radiated noise than the wiring in a home stereo, where the low level stuff is ~50k ohms impedance. 

Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics are just hoping that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service complaint.

Charlie
Audio tech, and service tech, in a couple of past lives

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:06 AM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
Quote:
I will throw in one asterisk *  ...

Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their data bus wiring.

 OK, 2 asterisks...

Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.


-Jeff




On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:


At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> Thanks guys for all the input there...
  
Quote:
I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but brittle over time.
   The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated    wires is necessary because of high extrusion    temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved    conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible    with Teflon insulation.
Quote:
I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics??
   Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on    electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,    the well crafted installation of qualified    appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)    do not require shielding of any kind. You    will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire    in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.    They are rare.    I can't remember the last time I found it    necessary to shield any wire.
  Bob . . .                    ////                   (o o)    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   >    < show me where I'm wrong.      >    =================================      In the interest of creative evolution    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based    on physics and good practice.














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Area-51



Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2023 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
This is really interesting now! 🤓

When i did the nervous system for a mustang project everything was twisted pairs throughout, except the loom between electric steering control box and steering rack, and GPS antenna; which were both twisted pair and shielded.

Makes sense that RF comes from AC and not DC current flow 🤔

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 7:15 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
At 11:01 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
Quote:
I will throw in one asterisk * ...

Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their data bus wiring.

OK, 2 asterisks...

Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.

If these techniques are necessary for the
system to achieve design goals then the
manufacturer's instructions will say so
and their wiring diagrams will illustrate
it.

Had a builder show up at one of my seminars
out in California waaayyy back when showing
off pictures of his LongEz project. He was
rather proud of the wiring . . . he advised
that he used shielded wire for everything.
I asked if he was having a noise problem and
he advised, 'no, the airplane isn't flying yet'.

The $, weight and time expended on this
endeavor would have been much better spent
elsewhere. The the physics that defines the
necessity for shielding is simple. If it's
not on the instructions, it's not necessary.



Bob . . .

////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================

In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2023 7:22 am    Post subject: Wiring Looms Reply with quote
Quote:

Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics
are just hoping that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service complaint.

Hope doesn't get you very far in the TC
aircraft world. DO160 and similar documents
call out a constellation of laboratory tests
to verify that an appliance is going to be
well behaved in the ship's electronic community.

The qualification tests demonstrate
resistance to expected, external stimuli
as well as freedom from generating 'noises' that
put other systems at risk.

If the drawings do (or do not) show shielding,
then you can bet there is a good reason for
it.


Bob . . .

////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
=================================

In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.

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