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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
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 Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:08 am Post subject: Barrett Pistons |
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Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2 ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
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Ttail
Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 120
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:10 am Post subject: Barrett Pistons |
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Hello Mark,
Thank you for your email and firstly I'm well aware of this issue, and let me explain the background. In this very small world of those of us who overhaul these engines, there was clearly a need for a much better piston than the original Russian piston which has a number of faults. Firstly it is made from an aluminium that expands at a very high rate as it heats, and in consequence needs to be made relatively small so that it does not seize when it heats and expands. Then, to overcome the relatively (and of course we are talking about fractions of a millimetre) small size when cold, the designers put in very aggressive oil control rings, in theory to stop oil descending into the lower cylinders, which of course it didn't do. But these rings then cause extra friction and so heat which really isn't necessary.
In consequence, we worked with Barrett to establish a solution to this problem, and through their connections in the US came up with a well-known piston company, JE pistons who have a good reputation in the car racing world. However, the practicality is that neither Barrett nor Aerometal, my partner in Hungary, which is significantly the largest business in this small world, have the resources to do 500 or 1000 hours of testing on a new piston. But we did sufficient testing to give us confidence that the pistons were good, although at the time we did think that the thinness of the rings might be a problem with the long term, but we were assured by JE that this would not be a problem in the future.
However after a while we started receiving reports that engines were losing compression through sticking rings and indeed some breaking rings. I know Sean Trestrail has asked what proportion of engines had this problem. It is curious, and certainly a large number did not and I suppose it might be a reflection on the way that they were used. But, at a guess myself 40% of engines with JE pistons had a problem at one stage or another.
We realised this around three and half years ago, and although JE insisted that the pistons were fine, we could see that they were not. So we went back to the drawing board and after a lot of research – as you can imagine, expensive for small businesses – decided that Carillo, again a well proven company would make much better pistons, so we came to an agreement with them to produce new pistons for us both in standard and high compression versions. I can only say that since then the problem has disappeared and equally for people with JE pistons that we have provided, we have offered to provide Carillo pistons at a reduced and friendly price. But certainly that is a complete solution.
Richard Goode
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01DA3658.748C3AA0[/img]
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
[img]cid:image002.png(at)01DA3658.748C3AA0[/img]
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Mark Bitterlich
Sent: 23 December 2023 19:06
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Barrett Pistons
Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2 ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:40 pm Post subject: Barrett Pistons |
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Merry Christmas and hoping of a great new year.
I would just to confirm that Motorstar of Bacau, the manufacturer of the M14P engines also has a 3 ring piston. They developed them in October of 2010. They overhauled a pair of Kamov helicopter engines for a client in Hungary and supplied one with the new rings and one with the original Russian rings. They discovered a 40% improvement in oil consumption and easier starting. The Kamov worked 600 hours the that season and after teardown found it was still in excellent shape. All new and overhauled engines since 2011 have used the three ring pistons with good results. We have not had any problems with rings.
Regards,
George Coy
MotorstarNA
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-363-5782 cell/Whatsapp
george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2023 6:08 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Barrett Pistons
Hello Mark,
Thank you for your email and firstly I'm well aware of this issue, and let me explain the background. In this very small world of those of us who overhaul these engines, there was clearly a need for a much better piston than the original Russian piston which has a number of faults. Firstly it is made from an aluminium that expands at a very high rate as it heats, and in consequence needs to be made relatively small so that it does not seize when it heats and expands. Then, to overcome the relatively (and of course we are talking about fractions of a millimetre) small size when cold, the designers put in very aggressive oil control rings, in theory to stop oil descending into the lower cylinders, which of course it didn't do. But these rings then cause extra friction and so heat which really isn't necessary.
In consequence, we worked with Barrett to establish a solution to this problem, and through their connections in the US came up with a well-known piston company, JE pistons who have a good reputation in the car racing world. However, the practicality is that neither Barrett nor Aerometal, my partner in Hungary, which is significantly the largest business in this small world, have the resources to do 500 or 1000 hours of testing on a new piston. But we did sufficient testing to give us confidence that the pistons were good, although at the time we did think that the thinness of the rings might be a problem with the long term, but we were assured by JE that this would not be a problem in the future.
However after a while we started receiving reports that engines were losing compression through sticking rings and indeed some breaking rings. I know Sean Trestrail has asked what proportion of engines had this problem. It is curious, and certainly a large number did not and I suppose it might be a reflection on the way that they were used. But, at a guess myself 40% of engines with JE pistons had a problem at one stage or another.
We realised this around three and half years ago, and although JE insisted that the pistons were fine, we could see that they were not. So we went back to the drawing board and after a lot of research – as you can imagine, expensive for small businesses – decided that Carillo, again a well proven company would make much better pistons, so we came to an agreement with them to produce new pistons for us both in standard and high compression versions. I can only say that since then the problem has disappeared and equally for people with JE pistons that we have provided, we have offered to provide Carillo pistons at a reduced and friendly price. But certainly that is a complete solution.
Richard Goode
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01DA3684.A180B280[/img]
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
[img]cid:image002.png(at)01DA3684.A180B280[/img]
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Mark Bitterlich
Sent: 23 December 2023 19:06
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Barrett Pistons
Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2 ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 2:15 am Post subject: Barrett Pistons |
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I agree very much with George’s email below, and we indeed use these SPC pistons on a number of our overhauls. As he writes, the far better and indeed only three piston rings significantly reduce oil consumption; cylinder temperature et cetera. And indeed, since Motorstar originally made M 14 P engines under licence, we are able to say that these pistons are "certified" and so legal when we are making engines for sometimes very bureaucratic countries in Europe where there is no "experimental" category. However they do have the disadvantage of being made from the same piston "blank" as the original Russian pistons with the same high rate of thermal expansion. But a very significant advance! Richard Goode.
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01DA371A.E54B0FB0[/img]
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
[img]cid:image002.png(at)01DA371A.E54B0FB0[/img]
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of George
Sent: 24 December 2023 21:38
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Barrett Pistons
Merry Christmas and hoping of a great new year.
I would just to confirm that Motorstar of Bacau, the manufacturer of the M14P engines also has a 3 ring piston. They developed them in October of 2010. They overhauled a pair of Kamov helicopter engines for a client in Hungary and supplied one with the new rings and one with the original Russian rings. They discovered a 40% improvement in oil consumption and easier starting. The Kamov worked 600 hours the that season and after teardown found it was still in excellent shape. All new and overhauled engines since 2011 have used the three ring pistons with good results. We have not had any problems with rings.
Regards,
George Coy
MotorstarNA
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-363-5782 cell/Whatsapp
george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2023 6:08 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Barrett Pistons
Hello Mark,
Thank you for your email and firstly I'm well aware of this issue, and let me explain the background. In this very small world of those of us who overhaul these engines, there was clearly a need for a much better piston than the original Russian piston which has a number of faults. Firstly it is made from an aluminium that expands at a very high rate as it heats, and in consequence needs to be made relatively small so that it does not seize when it heats and expands. Then, to overcome the relatively (and of course we are talking about fractions of a millimetre) small size when cold, the designers put in very aggressive oil control rings, in theory to stop oil descending into the lower cylinders, which of course it didn't do. But these rings then cause extra friction and so heat which really isn't necessary.
In consequence, we worked with Barrett to establish a solution to this problem, and through their connections in the US came up with a well-known piston company, JE pistons who have a good reputation in the car racing world. However, the practicality is that neither Barrett nor Aerometal, my partner in Hungary, which is significantly the largest business in this small world, have the resources to do 500 or 1000 hours of testing on a new piston. But we did sufficient testing to give us confidence that the pistons were good, although at the time we did think that the thinness of the rings might be a problem with the long term, but we were assured by JE that this would not be a problem in the future.
However after a while we started receiving reports that engines were losing compression through sticking rings and indeed some breaking rings. I know Sean Trestrail has asked what proportion of engines had this problem. It is curious, and certainly a large number did not and I suppose it might be a reflection on the way that they were used. But, at a guess myself 40% of engines with JE pistons had a problem at one stage or another.
We realised this around three and half years ago, and although JE insisted that the pistons were fine, we could see that they were not. So we went back to the drawing board and after a lot of research – as you can imagine, expensive for small businesses – decided that Carillo, again a well proven company would make much better pistons, so we came to an agreement with them to produce new pistons for us both in standard and high compression versions. I can only say that since then the problem has disappeared and equally for people with JE pistons that we have provided, we have offered to provide Carillo pistons at a reduced and friendly price. But certainly that is a complete solution.
Richard Goode
[img]cid:image001.png(at)01DA371A.E54B0FB0[/img]
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
[img]cid:image002.png(at)01DA371A.E54B0FB0[/img]
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Mark Bitterlich
Sent: 23 December 2023 19:06
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Barrett Pistons
Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2 ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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wamflight(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:37 am Post subject: Barrett Pistons |
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Merry Christmas!
| Quote: | On Dec 25, 2023, at 04:19, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
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I agree very much with George’s email below, and we indeed use these SPC pistons on a number of our overhauls. As he writes, the far better and indeed only three piston rings significantly reduce oil consumption; cylinder temperature et cetera. And indeed, since Motorstar originally made M 14 P engines under licence, we are able to say that these pistons are "certified" and so legal when we are making engines for sometimes very bureaucratic countries in Europe where there is no "experimental" category. However they do have the disadvantage of being made from the same piston "blank" as the original Russian pistons with the same high rate of thermal expansion. But a very significant advance! Richard Goode.
<image001.png>
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
<image002.png>
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of George
Sent: 24 December 2023 21:38
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Barrett Pistons
Merry Christmas and hoping of a great new year.
I would just to confirm that Motorstar of Bacau, the manufacturer of the M14P engines also has a 3 ring piston. They developed them in October of 2010. They overhauled a pair of Kamov helicopter engines for a client in Hungary and supplied one with the new rings and one with the original Russian rings. They discovered a 40% improvement in oil consumption and easier starting. The Kamov worked 600 hours the that season and after teardown found it was still in excellent shape. All new and overhauled engines since 2011 have used the three ring pistons with good results. We have not had any problems with rings.
Regards,
George Coy
MotorstarNA
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-363-5782 cell/Whatsapp
george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2023 6:08 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Barrett Pistons
Hello Mark,
Thank you for your email and firstly I'm well aware of this issue, and let me explain the background. In this very small world of those of us who overhaul these engines, there was clearly a need for a much better piston than the original Russian piston which has a number of faults. Firstly it is made from an aluminium that expands at a very high rate as it heats, and in consequence needs to be made relatively small so that it does not seize when it heats and expands. Then, to overcome the relatively (and of course we are talking about fractions of a millimetre) small size when cold, the designers put in very aggressive oil control rings, in theory to stop oil descending into the lower cylinders, which of course it didn't do. But these rings then cause extra friction and so heat which really isn't necessary.
In consequence, we worked with Barrett to establish a solution to this problem, and through their connections in the US came up with a well-known piston company, JE pistons who have a good reputation in the car racing world. However, the practicality is that neither Barrett nor Aerometal, my partner in Hungary, which is significantly the largest business in this small world, have the resources to do 500 or 1000 hours of testing on a new piston. But we did sufficient testing to give us confidence that the pistons were good, although at the time we did think that the thinness of the rings might be a problem with the long term, but we were assured by JE that this would not be a problem in the future.
However after a while we started receiving reports that engines were losing compression through sticking rings and indeed some breaking rings. I know Sean Trestrail has asked what proportion of engines had this problem. It is curious, and certainly a large number did not and I suppose it might be a reflection on the way that they were used. But, at a guess myself 40% of engines with JE pistons had a problem at one stage or another.
We realised this around three and half years ago, and although JE insisted that the pistons were fine, we could see that they were not. So we went back to the drawing board and after a lot of research – as you can imagine, expensive for small businesses – decided that Carillo, again a well proven company would make much better pistons, so we came to an agreement with them to produce new pistons for us both in standard and high compression versions. I can only say that since then the problem has disappeared and equally for people with JE pistons that we have provided, we have offered to provide Carillo pistons at a reduced and friendly price. But certainly that is a complete solution.
Richard Goode
<image001.png>
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN SOVIET & CHINESE RADIAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
<image002.png>
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Mark Bitterlich
Sent: 23 December 2023 19:06
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Barrett Pistons
Richard hello, and Merry Christmas!
A friend using a 14PF in his Radial Rocket used Barrett pistons. The #2 ring on 8 out of 9 pistons froze in the groove with carbon fouling.
He then checked another M-14 with these pistons and found the same thing.
They replaced all cylinders with rebuilt Nitrasil coating, and used Carillo pistons with a gapless #2 ring.
Did not see it myself, but trust this gent explicitly. He was a partner in a Debonair long ago plus he and I served in the Marine Corps together. He's trustworthy.
Thought you should be aware.
Mark
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