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Radial engine: more pro than con?

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Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Hello all,



I'm curious about the radial engine as a powerplant for the Moose and wondered how those flying feel about it.  I've been perusing a number of sites dedicated to the Moose, spending a lot of time going through GoFLyAMoose.com and one or two others.  On one of the sites, there was a article going over the engine in general, and it made it out to be (or at least I read it that way) that the engine is a potential maintenance hassle.  Oil seeping into the combustion chambers, broken/bent connecting rods, etc.  The overall air of the article didn't seem positive to me.



That being the case, however, Murphy makes a pretty strong point that this engine is more power for half the price of a comparable Lyc or Continental.  So with that in mind, do you feel that the radial is the best fit for this plane, dollar for dollar?  Can your average A/P maintain one of these engines, or would I need to seek out special service?



Also, what is fuel consumption on the radial compared to the (I)O-540/550?



Thanks and best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Chris, I replied over 2 hours ago on this and it hasn't shown up yet.  I am on the forum page of Matronics now.  If it doesn't show up soon I will re-post.

Scott

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Thanks Scott,



The Matronics forums is where I usually post messages as well instead of email.  Appreciate you taking the time 



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

george(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Chris, I guess I know a lot of people who swear by them and no one who

swears at them, but I am a dealer and probably biased. (I have logged over

2000 hours behind them in many different aircraft)



George Coy

President

Gesoco Industries Inc.

629 Airport Rd.

Swanton, VT 05488

TEL 802-868-5633

FAX 802-868-4465

Web Site www.gesoco.com

e-mail George(at)gesoco.com

Franklin County Airport (KFSO)



--

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

This may end up a double post – apologies in advance but the regular email is taking for ever to come through so I will post from the forum now.



Chris, I would be interested in what article you read.



I don't have "a lot" of operational experience yet but we are nearly complete with our 40 hours.



As you have read you can't just jump in the M14 hit the starter and go.  However following the simple guidelines in the Russian manual and the hydraulic lock is a non issue.



After shutdown most of the oil tends to drain down to the main oil sump.  If this sump gets overfull then it can flow over into the lower cylinders (it will get into the lower cylinders even if the sump is not full but it is worse when the sump is full).  The Russian's have you run the engine up to 1900 RPM or so for 30 second before shutdown to make the lower sump pump more effective and pump the oil out, giving room for the oil to drain.  Also, a lot of us have installed "clean kits" which you probably already know are pumps the suck the oil out of the sump and send it back to the tank making room for the oil to drain.  The lower cylinders also have intake manifold drains.  The manual only has you draining these if suspected hydraulic lock or after engine has been shutdown for a period of time.  As part of most "clean kits" these three drains are interconnected and have a quick drain on them.  This is a "must have" as oil always comes out the drain and without it you would have to remove the cowl to get to the manifold drain plugs.

Some articles make it sound like you can not feel the hydraulic lock and will bend a rod pulling it through.  I don't believe that, with just a little experience it is very obvious when it starts to feel "hard" to pull.  Then it is just a matter of removing the bottom three sparks plugs, opening the manifold drain and pulling the prop through until the oil drains out the exhaust and the manifold drain.  Hassle - maybe, but I can do it in two or three minutes and it is part of the price to play the game.  I have the automotive spark plug conversion so it is easy to pull off the plug wires and I carry a spark plug wrench all set to go.  If you go out on a weekend of flying you may only have to do this the first time, as it usually takes three days or so of sitting around (but not always) to fill things up.  I generally run my sump pump out after shutdown, close the main oil tank shutoff valve, open the manifold drain and then before I leave the airplane pull the prop through a few times and drain out any oil that has already gotten into the cylinders.  



I still don't think it can be beat, bang for the buck.  My fuel flow hasn't been totally "calibrated" yet but if I believe my FF indicator I am getting between 13.5 GPH and 15 GPH at cruise settings(which for my Moose is about 105 to 110 Knots indicated, true in the 115 to 120 range (knots).  This is all up high (8 to 10 thousand feet) as I haven't flown below that altitude yet.



The Russian maintenance manual that comes (or should come) with the Russian engines is very specific in all the normal maintenance ("tasks" as they call them)and has cards that spell out exactly what to do in step by step order even telling what tool to use from the Russian tool kit.  If a major problem should occur than special help may be in order but I would think any AP could figure it out with the help of the few vendors and shops experienced with the M14.



I don't want to make it sound all rosy either. It can be a pain in the butt pulling the prop through, jump inside run the primer, jump back out, pull the prop through, jump back in hit the starter - to have it not start and have to repeat all over.  Again part of the price to play - and it usually does start.  I made it my first 30 hours without ever running out the starter air bottle. Then on a cool morning I final did run out (I don't think I was priming it enough for the cooler temps) I think once I get used to the cooler wx starts that won't be a problem.



Have to run, hope that helps a little.

Scott

Moose 174SL

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Just to go alone with George's comments - I have sworn at mine - but it turned out to be my fault, not the M14, so I had to apologize. 



Scott

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Many thanks Scott, George, for your thoughts.



The article you asked about, Scott, is the article from your site authored by Fred Abramson.  I guess when the article's first paragraph mentioned says, "...the M14P may have some surprises in store for you.  Expensive surprises.  Maybe even scary surprises", a guy like me could develop a negative image from the get-go.



The look of the rotary engine on the Moose is just too amazing to ignore, and the fuel-flow numbers you estimated are a lot lower than I expected them to be.  That's quite welcome!  I was worried that they were going to far exceed their flat-bodied counterparts.



I can accept that if one want to use this kind of engine that one has to accept the side effects (if you will).  Interestingly, a couple of hours after I first posted this message, I thought I'd peruse the M14 forums to see what kind of information is available, and I ran across references to some of the specialized kits made available from vendors to minimize some of those side effects.  It appears that this engine is rather well supported in the U.S.  Seeing that some of these engines make their way to ag aircraft, and living here in the middle of corn and cow country, it seems reasonable that one might find service for an M14 within a reasonable distance.



Regarding the Russian maintenance manual of which you spoke, I presume there is a translation available, or are there lots of circles and arrows?   Of the limited things I've read, in addition to your comments, the engine's service manuals are said to be very well laid out and cover the material thoroughly.  That would be a great benefit, to be sure.  I would appreciate any direction to other references to this engine if you're aware of any.



Thanks again for taking the time to write.  I'm looking forward to continued reading of your Moose adventures, along with any trials and tribulations related to the airframe.  I'm trying to stay on top of the tailwheel bulkead and elevator cracking incidents and see if Murphy addresses them before I'm ready to build anything.



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

Chris In Marshfield

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Also, Scott, did I see you have a GRT EIS in your Moose?  If that was your plane, was that a specially programmed unit?



Best regards,

Chris

_________________
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI

george(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Send me an E-mail off list and I will send you (free) a CD with all English

manuals and instillation notes.



George Coy

President

Gesoco Industries Inc.

629 Airport Rd.

Swanton, VT 05488

TEL 802-868-5633

FAX 802-868-4465

Web Site www.gesoco.com

e-mail George(at)gesoco.com

Franklin County Airport (KFSO)



--

ScottA

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Park City, UT

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Yes, Fred's (whom I believe has passed away??) article seems to start out a little negative but I don't think he really intended it that way - more like if you can learn about some of this stuff from the start you can avoid the problems.  There are plenty of bent connecting rods due to the hydraulic lock issues, but I would guess it is guys not following the recommended practices.



I can't quote the numbers exactly but I know of a Moose and a C-185 that flew side by side with almost the same fuel flows.  This same Moose will fly side by side with a super cub in slow flight also (Steve R's on my website).



Yes, all the manuals have been translated to English.



I think Murphy "secretly" upgrades stuff all the time without telling anyone.  I "hear" (but have no proof) that certain skins are thicker here and there now.  Not sure why they don't tell the rest of us but I suspect everyone would think they need the upgrade "free".  I don't think they should, Cessna surely didn't give out all there changes over the years "free".



I had a tail issue from a severe shimmy on my second landing.  I then put a "real" (i.e. real expensive) tail wheel on and went back to the original MAM stinger with a steel rod inside and have had no issues since.  Of course many variables so don't know the exact cause but I believe a combination of too flexible stinger and a poorly machined tail wheel (it was the "large" tail wheel from MAM that is really an Elite nose wheel).



Someday I will put more "flying" related stuff on my site.  I did just add a few flying pictures.



Yes that is the GRT EIS.  The Pitts 12 guys had them set it up for the M14.  Works great. I suspect with all the new stuff coming out an improved one will be out soon.  This works good though.  Seems odd at first that it has 9 EGT and 3 CHT when you can not lean the mixture but you can tell a lot from just the diff in EGTs.  The Russians had only 2 cylinders with CHT indications and no EGTs.



Later,

Scott

174SL

btripp(at)interisland.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Radial engine: more pro than con?

George-- We need one too, if that is possible. We have #255 under construction.

 BobTripp



 At 12:47 PM 08/14/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "George Coy" <george(at)gesoco.com>



 Send me an E-mail off list and I will send you (free) a CD with all English

 manuals and instillation notes.



 George Coy

 President

 Gesoco Industries Inc.

 629 Airport Rd.

 Swanton, VT 05488

 TEL 802-868-5633

 FAX 802-868-4465

 Web Site www.gesoco.com

 e-mail George(at)gesoco.com

 Franklin County Airport (KFSO)



 



 --

george(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Send me your  Snail Mail address (off list) and we will send it out. 

  

 

George  Coy

President

Gesoco Industries Inc.

629 Airport Rd.

Swanton, VT  05488

TEL 802-868-5633

FAX 802-868-4465

Web Site  www.gesoco.com

e-mail George(at)gesoco.com

Franklin County Airport  (KFSO)  [quote]   --

btripp(at)interisland.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: Radial engine: more pro than con?

Thanks George-- P.O. BOX 1896, FRIDAY HARBOR,WA 98250

 Bob



 At 05:02 AM 08/15/2006, you wrote:

 [quote] Send me your Snail Mail address (off list) and we will send it out. 

  



 George Coy

 President

 Gesoco Industries Inc.

 629 Airport Rd.

 Swanton, VT 05488

 TEL 802-868-5633

 FAX 802-868-4465

 Web Site www.gesoco.com

 e-mail George(at)gesoco.com

 Franklin County Airport (KFSO) 

   --

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