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Aerobatics in 601 series

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J2j3h4(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

I know that Zenith says the planes are not intended for aerobatics, but  I can't believe that a plane would be designed for +/- 6 g  at gross weight  without aerobatics in mind.  That is stronger than the RV's or Sonex, which  are rated at +6 -3 g and that is at a reduced weight.   

 That said, I'm sure it is capable of  aerobatics, but the question is "How well does it do them?"  I have about  2.5 hours of aerobatic instruction plus spin training and really enjoy  it.  I'm not interested in competition or extreme maneuvers, but enjoy an  occasional loop or roll and combinations thereof.  I've read many accounts  from RV and Sonex pilots about how pleasant their planes are to fly in  aerobatics, but I've never read any from Zenith pilots.  I did read that  Chris Heintz said (off the record) that the 601 is very pleasant in aerobatics,  but I've never read any other comments.

  

 I have searched the archives, but didn't find anyone that said they had  done aerobatics.  C'mon guys, surely SOMEONE has. 

  

 Breathes there a man with soul so dead

 That never to himself has said

 "Hey what happens if I do this"

  

 (With apologies to Sir Walter Scott)

  

 I am trying to decide between a Zenith and a Sonex.  The Zenith seems  preferable as a plane for cross country, but I just want to do something  different once in a while.  My final choice will probably be based on  whether and how well (in terms of pleasant handling) the Zenith will do  aerobatics.

  

 Jim Hasper

  



  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

>> I am trying to decide between a Zenith and a  Sonex.

  

 Have you sat in both? The Sonex is said to be  tighter.

  

 -- Craig

   [quote][b]

J2j3h4(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

Yes.  The Sonex is comparable to a Cessna 152, while the Zenith is  like a 172.  Both are doable, but as I said the Zenith is unquestionably  more comfortable for cross country, especially for two.  However, 95% of my  flying would be solo and local, and the aerobatics is more important to  me.

  

 Jim

  

 Do not archive

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 9/21/2006 3:02:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     >> I am trying to decide between a Zenith and a    Sonex.

    

   Have you sat in both? The Sonex is said to be    tighter.

	


  [quote][b]

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

Craig-

     Everything's a tradeoff. You could scratchbuild a Sonex  for about 1/2 the final price of a Zenith, but I'm sorry, the Sonex  ranks in the top 10 ugliest aircraft of all time. Sort of like that Toyota Scion  breadbox. Reliable, functional, affordable, but you have to park it in a dark  alley behind a dumpster.

     You know, someone had a "Low and slow" clip from Youtube  a couple of days ago. I was really impressed, but my question is, "What was the  guy flying?" The pilot did a nice Immelman on the way home.

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

I beleive that was an RV-7 in the "Low and Slow" clip.



On 9/21/06, Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net (naumuk(at)alltel.net)> wrote: [quote]       Craig-

     Everything's a tradeoff. You could scratchbuild a Sonex  for about 1/2 the final price of a Zenith, but I'm sorry, the Sonex  ranks in the top 10 ugliest aircraft of all time. Sort of like that Toyota Scion  breadbox. Reliable, functional, affordable, but you have to park it in a dark  alley behind a dumpster.

     You know, someone had a "Low and slow" clip from Youtube  a couple of days ago. I was really impressed, but my question is, "What was the  guy flying?" The pilot did a nice Immelman on the way home.

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

I'm fairly sure that was an RV in that clip. 

 [quote]   ---

mhilderbrand(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

I am glad you asked this question, I was about to post the same question.  So far, not much response to the original question. I am building a XL myself  and do not plan on doing rolls or loops. My initial, and very amateur thought,  would be that the sonex would be a better performer of aerobatics... More  sensitive plane, shorter wing design.. etc..  FWIF when I LOOK at the  Sonex, I think performance! I look past the uglyness. But, since I weigh 230lbs  and most my passengers seem to weigh near that, the Sonex was just too small a  plane for me. Hope this helps. 

 mike

 [quote]   ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

Mike-

     "Elbow room" was a major consideration in  my choosing a Zenith over a Sonex (Or KR-2, for that  matter) too. Once you're faced with paying for an engine, there's  no doubt about it. You get more scoot for the buck with a VW powered Sonex,  but........

      Like I said- everything's a tradeoff.

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

RV? OK. No matter what- It'd be a blast to fly with that guy. 

     Interesting thought. In what  pastime other than flying is being safe, conservative and boring  considered a mark of excellence?

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

 [quote]    

[b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

The Zenith web site lists +/- 6 gs as the "ultimate" load factor for the Zodiac XL. I take that to mean the design load factor; the loading that may cause the wings to fall off if exceeded at gross weight. The maximum safe in-flight g loading of an airplane at gross weight is the flight load factor and is usually rated at 2/3 of its design load factor. In the case of the Zodiac, that would be +/- 4 g.  The g loadings listed on the Sonex and RV web sites appear to be flight load factors.



On Sep 21, 2006, at 3:35 PM, J2j3h4(at)aol.com (J2j3h4(at)aol.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    

I know that Zenith says the planes are not intended for aerobatics, but I can't believe that a plane would be designed for +/- 6 g  at gross weight without aerobatics in mind.  That is stronger than the RV's or Sonex, which are rated at +6 -3 g and that is at a reduced weight.  

 That said, I'm sure it is capable of aerobatics, but the question is "How well does it do them?"  I have about 2.5 hours of aerobatic instruction plus spin training and really enjoy it.  I'm not interested in competition or extreme maneuvers, but enjoy an occasional loop or roll and combinations thereof.  I've read many accounts from RV and Sonex pilots about how pleasant their planes are to fly in aerobatics, but I've never read any from Zenith pilots.  I did read that Chris Heintz said (off the record) that the 601 is very pleasant in aerobatics, but I've never read any other comments.

  

 Jim Hasper

 

	






 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatics in 601 series

OK, after taking one flight in the XL I was convinced it was the machine for me.  The day was clear but gusty.  Flight Service was reporting 20 gusting to 35.  It really felt more like 15 with gusts to 30.  Anyway up we went for my maiden XL flight.  The take offs and landing were performed by the instructor with me following on the controls. I flew it un-assisted and tracked headings, steep turns and all the practical pilot maneuvers.  



The impression of this plane is stable with great rudder authority.  All the landings were crosswind that day.



If I were looking for an areobatic plane this wouldn't be the one.  But I am looking for stable cross country machine that I can build from plans.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

The comments below the  video said it was an RV4. I was more curious what river in Washington it  was.

  

 -- Craig

[quote] [b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

Hello Jim,



Better will be if you go snd  build an RV-4  that one is OK for aerobatics...



Happy flying.



Saludos

Gary Gower

Do not archive.



J2j3h4(at)aol.com wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		       

I know that Zenith says the planes are not intended for aerobatics, but  I can't believe that a plane would be designed for +/- 6 g  at gross weight  without aerobatics in mind.  That is stronger than the RV's or Sonex, which  are rated at +6 -3 g and that is at a reduced weight.   

 That said, I'm sure it is capable of   aerobatics, but the question is "How well does it do them?"  I have about  2.5 hours of aerobatic instruction plus spin training and really enjoy  it.  I'm not interested in competition or extreme maneuvers, but enjoy an  occasional loop or roll and combinations thereof.  I've read many accounts  from RV and Sonex pilots about how pleasant their planes are to fly in  aerobatics, but I've never read any from Zenith pilots.  I did read that  Chris Heintz said (off the record) that the 601 is very pleasant in aerobatics,  but I've never read any other comments.

  

 I have searched the archives, but didn't find anyone that said they had  done aerobatics.  C'mon guys, surely SOMEONE has. 

  

 Breathes there a man with soul so dead

 That never to himself has said

 "Hey what happens if I do this"

  

 (With apologies to Sir Walter Scott)

   

 I am trying to decide between a Zenith and a Sonex.  The Zenith seems  preferable as a plane for cross country, but I just want to do something  different once in a while.  My final choice will probably be based on  whether and how well (in terms of pleasant handling) the Zenith will do  aerobatics.

  

 Jim Hasper

  



   	  Quote: 	
		    _ 	
	




  [quote][b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

Restorative and surgical dentistry. I've made a living and earned a fair level of trust being safe boring and conservative. 



Ed Moody II



No guts..... no broken bones.



---- Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		       RV? OK. No matter what- It'd be a blast to fly with that guy. 

     Interesting thought. In what pastime other than flying is being safe, conservative and boring considered a mark of excellence?

 Bill Naumuk

 HDS Fuselage

 Townville, Pa

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatics in 601 series

Below are the "Aerobatic Category" Specs from the Sonex website. Note that the Sonex attains +6 g's at a MGW of only 950 lbs. When you get it up to it's normal  MGW the max g's are +4.



The max g's quoted for the 601 are based on the real MGW.



If you want an aerobatic plane build one but neither the Zenith or the Sonex is aerobatic.



Aerobatic Category 80 hp 2180 AeroVee 80 hp Jabiru 120 hp Jabiru 

Gross Weight - Aerobatic  950 lbs  950 lbs 950 lbs 

Baggage (Max)  10 lbs  10 lbs  10 lbs  

Rate of Climb  1000-1250 fpm  1000-1250 fpm  2000+ fpm  

Positive Load Factor  +6.0 Gs  +6.0 Gs  +6.0 Gs  

Negative Load Factor  -3.0 Gs  -3.0 Gs  -3.0 Gs  

CG Limits  25-29% Wing Chord  25-29% Wing Chord 25-29% Wing Chord

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

mtherr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

IMNSHO, the Zodiac is not an aerobatic platform at

all.  It is possible that the wings and spars are

strong, but the fuselage and tail attachment are

flimsy when compared to those of aerobatics planes.  

I would not be excited to see the horizontal stab

and/or rudder leave the plane in a demanding

manoeuver. 



OH... And I would not trust my seat 0.040" thick belt

attachment points for repeated stresses...



Michel





----------------------------

Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ

  http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601

  http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby

  http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby



__________________________________________________

J2j3h4(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

I wish I could - I started an RV-7, but then learned I could not pass my  medical, so am flying as a Sport Pilot now and looking for an alternative  aircraft.

  

 Jim

  

 do not archive

  

  

 In a message dated 9/22/2006 1:25:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  ggower_99(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello    Jim,



Better will be if you go snd  build an RV-4  that one is    OK for aerobatics...



Happy flying.



Saludos

Gary Gower

Do    not archive.



J2j3h4(at)aol.com wrote:     	  Quote: 	
		            

I know that Zenith says the planes are not intended for aerobatics,      but I can't believe that a plane would be designed for +/- 6 g  at      gross weight without aerobatics in mind.  That is stronger than the      RV's or Sonex, which are rated at +6 -3 g and that is at a reduced weight.       

     That said, I'm sure it is capable      of aerobatics, but the question is "How well does it do them?"  I have      about 2.5 hours of aerobatic instruction plus spin training and really      enjoy it.  I'm not interested in competition or extreme maneuvers, but      enjoy an occasional loop or roll and combinations thereof.  I've read      many accounts from RV and Sonex pilots about how pleasant their planes are      to fly in aerobatics, but I've never read any from Zenith pilots.  I      did read that Chris Heintz said (off the record) that the 601 is very      pleasant in aerobatics, but I've never read any other comments.

      

     I have searched the archives, but didn't find anyone that said they had      done aerobatics.  C'mon guys, surely SOMEONE has. 

      

     Breathes there a man with soul so dead

     That never to himself has said

     "Hey what happens if I do this"

      

     (With apologies to Sir Walter Scott)

      

     I am trying to decide between a Zenith and a Sonex.  The Zenith      seems preferable as a plane for cross country, but I just want to do      something different once in a while.  My final choice will probably be      based on whether and how well (in terms of pleasant handling) the Zenith      will do aerobatics.

      

     Jim Hasper

      



 	  Quote: 	
		    _ 	




f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

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://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 

  

  [quote][b]

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: Aerobatics in 601 series

Jim, what did you do with the RV 7 ? I am looking for a new project now that my XL is completed and a RV would be a nice new challenge, Best regards, Bill of Georgia  [quote][b]

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