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Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 

Caveats: NONE



Does anyone know the glide ratio of the Mark-3 Classic?



I'm asked this question often by fellow pilots, about my Kolb.



Though I do not know the answer, I know they are wanting to compare our

"very light" planes to their GA mounts (Cessnas and Pipers), which

generally have glide ratios that fall between 7:1 and 9:1.



My Mark-III, with approximately the same wing area as a Cessna-172, yet

operating at about a third the weight, MUST have a better glide ratio

than the Spam cans, right?



Dennis Kirby

New Mexico

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 

Caveats: NONE

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Glide ratio is not always what you might expect. Perhaps you remember the 

DC-9 crash at New Hope, Ga. about 25 years ago, it went through a hail storm 

and flamed out, crashed on a dirt road and hit a gas station. Very Bad 

Scene.

A couple weeks later, was talking to a DC-9 driver for Southern, (I was a 

controller at Albany Tower at the time) and asked what the best glide ratio 

of a DC-9 was. He said that had never come up, but after the New Hope 

disaster, maybe it would be good to know. He called me back when he was 

about 90 miles south of Atlanta and said it was 20:1, at 250 knots. Probably 

more than twice as good as a MKIII...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

do not archive



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

So the spamcans have a great glide ratio...ask them, with all the  

gliding distance, how small a patch can they get into, and back outa of?

regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



do not archive

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

You're correct Reverend, it's called inertia...

  

 DVD

  

 do not archive



 

 On 11/7/06, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org  (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>



Glide ratio is not always what you might expect. Perhaps you remember the

DC-9 crash at New Hope, Ga. about 25 years ago, it went through a hail storm

and flamed out, crashed on a dirt road and hit a gas station. Very Bad 

Scene.

A couple weeks later, was talking to a DC-9 driver for Southern, (I was a

controller at Albany Tower at the time) and asked what the best glide ratio

of a DC-9 was. He said that had never come up, but after the New Hope 

disaster, maybe it would be good to know. He called me back when he was

about 90 miles south of Atlanta and said it was 20:1, at 250 knots. Probably

more than twice as good as a MKIII...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) 

do not archive



[b]

_________________
Ã´Â¿Ã´

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dennis, I'd bet on the Spam Cans.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:27:02 -0700




<Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>



Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED

Caveats: NONE



Does anyone know the glide ratio of the Mark-3 Classic?



I'm asked this question often by fellow pilots, about my Kolb.



Though I do not know the answer, I know they are wanting to compare our

"very light" planes to their GA mounts (Cessnas and Pipers), which

generally have glide ratios that fall between 7:1 and 9:1.



My Mark-III, with approximately the same wing area as a Cessna-172, yet

operating at about a third the weight, MUST have a better glide ratio

than the Spam cans, right?



Dennis Kirby

New Mexico

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED

Caveats: NONE

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

On Nov 7, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   My Mark-III, with approximately the same wing area as a Cessna-172,  

 yet

 operating at about a third the weight, MUST have a better glide ratio

 than the Spam cans, right?


	




Not really.

Spam cans are much cleaner aerodynamically than our Kolb planes are.

Sink rate may be somewhat better in a Kolb due to  lighter weight   

but not glide ratio.

At gross weight  a two place Kolb will have a glide ratio slightly  

better than a brick.  < g >

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

HeyKolbers ever had an engine out?I built a 1990 KXP  with a 503 flew it for 10 years and had two engine outs, fortunately both in the pattern she glided wonderfully I wished I had dive brakes  so I could get her down she floated nearly the lengh of the 1500  ft field but a mk III AT gross weight I saw one come down and all it did was wipe out its gear but Norm and I came down fast and hard hes dead,.Im building a . rest his soul and when I get out of my wheel chair I'm  going to build a XENOS motorglider 24to 1 and a cruise speed of 120 knots.I'm building a hanger shop this winter,in my wheelchair and my deposit to SONEX it soon on its way! Don't get me wrong I still love KOLBS and you guys  but that glide ratio Question just got me started ,sorry oh by the way I have a private glider license and had to learn alot about glide ratio to get it ,Chris Davis



David Lehman <david(at)davidlehman.net> wrote:   [quote]  You're correct Reverend, it's called inertia...

   

  DVD

   

  do not archive



 

  On 11/7/06, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:   [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org  (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>



Glide ratio is not always what you might expect. Perhaps you remember the

DC-9 crash at New Hope, Ga. about 25 years ago, it went through a hail storm

and flamed out, crashed on a dirt road and hit a gas station. Very Bad 

Scene.

A couple weeks later, was talking to a DC-9 driver for Southern, (I was  [quote][b]

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

HeyKolbers ever had an engine out?I built a 1990 KXP  with a 503 flew it for 10 years and had two engine outs, fortunately both in the pattern she glided wonderfully I wished I had dive brakes  so I could get her down she floated nearly the lengh of the 1500  ft field but a mk III AT gross weight I saw one come down and all it did was wipe out its gear but Norm and I came down fast and hard hes dead,.Im building a . rest his soul and when I get out of my wheel chair I'm  going to build a XENOS motorglider 24to 1 and a cruise speed of 120 knots.I'm building a hanger shop this winter,in my wheelchair and my deposit to SONEX it soon on its way! Don't get me wrong I still love KOLBS and you guys  but that glide ratio Question just got me started ,sorry oh by the way I have a private glider license and had to learn alot about glide ratio to get it ,Chris Davis



David Lehman <david(at)davidlehman.net> wrote:   [quote]  You're correct Reverend, it's called inertia...

   

  DVD

   

  do not archive



 

  On 11/7/06, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:   [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org  (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>



Glide ratio is not always what you might expect. Perhaps you remember the

DC-9 crash at New Hope, Ga. about 25 years ago, it went through a hail storm

and flamed out, crashed on a dirt road and hit a gas station. Very Bad 

Scene.

A couple weeks later, was talking to a DC-9 driver for Southern, (I was   Sponsored Link



 Free Uniden 5.8GHz Phone System with Packet8 Internet Phone Service [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

The next time I go flying I will test your theory of the Brick glide ratio I will unload it at 1000 ft AGL and turn off my engine at the same time and see if the brick makes it to the airport, I have a good idea it will not meet me at the airport.

  I have done a bunch of dead stick landings on purpose and you are correct  the sink rate will overcome your distance to the strip pretty quick so be sure to test your Glide Ratio before you really need it in a off field landing 

 

 Ellery 

 do not archive  [quote][b]

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Hey Kolbers ever had an engine out?I built a 1990 KXP  with a 503 flew it for 10 years and had two engine outs, fortunately both in the pattern she glided wonderfully I wished I had dive brakes  so I could get her down she floated nearly the lengh of the 1500  ft field but a mk III AT gross weight I saw one come down and all it did was wipe out its gear but Norm and I came down fast and hard hes dead,.Im building a . rest his soul and when I get out of my wheel chair I'm  going to build a XENOS motorglider 24to 1 and a cruise speed of 120 knots.I'm building a hanger shop this winter,in my wheelchair and my deposit to SONEX it soon on its way! Don't get me wrong I still love KOLBS and you guys  but that glide ratio Question just got me started ,sorry oh by the way I have a private glider license and had to learn alot about glide raatio to get it . Chris Davis  [quote]Sponsored Link



 [url=http://o1.qnsr.com/cgi/r?;n 3;c 32538;s 14;x=7936;f 0611011404190;u=j;z=TIMESTAMP;]Get an Online or Campus degree - Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year.[/url] [quote][b]

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Chris,

I had an engine off landing with a passenger in a Mark III, the landing was 

smooth as silk. No need to bend anything. The stall speed is the same with 

or without the engine running. I was at 5k and I was glad I was high and 

over my airport.



I haven't yet figured out how to land my xtra smooth as silk.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Several years ago, middle of summer, I put on my leather jacket, the MKIII  had the 1/2 doors on it, and I took off and started climbing. Twenty five  minutes later, I was over a little country airport at 10,000 feet. Throttled  back, let it idle for a second, and shut it off. Glided all the way down and  landed deadstick. On the way down, I played. Fast, slow, wingovers, turns, took  the headset off so I could just listen to the air slide by.  It was really  nice. I need to do it again.

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

  

 ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Hi Guys,



I shut my engine down on a regular basis to practice engine off landings. Sometimes at 500' and sometimes at 5k'. I have a Kolb Mark III classic. I only have other aircraft that I have flown over the years to compare with, but I would say the glide ratio is only about 5 or 6 to 1. The Kolb is definety not a long glider.

Engine off landings are a piece of cake. It's just like landing with the engine, but you only get one shot and no high flares.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:58 am Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Glide ratio of 5 or 6 to 1.  That is not much, but I think that it is

about right.  My Mark III Classic is a dream to fly, but it does not

glide as well as the PA-11 Cub Special that I use to have.  I have

actually soared with the prop stopped in the Cub.  I have tried my

Classic, but no luck yet.  In a couple months, I will be adding some

Kasper like tips on the bow of the wing.  Same Kasper  formula (2 chord

thicknesses high and 1/2 chord below).  They will be about 3 to 4 feet

long from the aft edge of the aileron forward set at 7 degree in and 30

degrees from the vertical. They will, hopefully, give more dihedral

effect so as to turn better with rudder only, a more progressive stall,

slightly better rate of climb, a slower stall speed and more adverse yaw

for more rudder control in crosswind landings.  These types of tips only

slightly reduce the cruise speed because the overall angle of attack

(i.e. induced drag) is reduced due to the added lift of the tips.  It

may be a waste of time and some money, but will try it anyway.  They are

made of 1/16" lexan with some stiffners here and there.  Question:  Has

anyone measured the stopped prop glide ratio accurately?  It is kind of

hard to do. 

By the way, if these tips do work, I will remake them correctly out of

fiberglass so that they will be stiff and have an airfoil on the inside.

Having the airfoil make them much more efficient.          Vic in

Sacramento

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:15 am Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Glide ratio:   I think that it would be fun to match an Ercoupe and a

Mark III Classic side by side at 1000 feet and let them glide in dead

stick on a wide runway.  They only thing for sure is that the Ercoupe

would get there first, but I bet that the touchdown spot would be about

the same.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

In the same category would be the Colt, TriPacer and the short wing 

Citabria.

An engine out in a Pitts will get your attention too.

BB  do not archive



On 8, Nov 2006, at 5:14 AM, APilot(at)webtv.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Glide ratio:   I think that it would be fun to match an Ercoupe and a

 Mark III Classic side by side at 1000 feet and let them glide in dead

 stick on a wide runway.  They only thing for sure is that the Ercoupe

 would get there first, but I bet that the touchdown spot would be about

 the same.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

At 01:58 AM 11/8/06 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Question:  Has anyone measured the stopped prop glide ratio accurately?  

It is kind of hard to do. 




	


Vic,



On the 144th flight the 447 seized up on climb out at 1,500 feet agl.  I was 

able to spin the FireFly around and head back and land in a bean field with 

the rows.  I was about 100 yards from the take off point.  I had a little 

tail wind and I estimated that the glide ratio came out close to six to 

one.



For light wing loading, I believe for the glide ratio is heavily dependent 

upon air temp/air density.  I try to be consistent on my landing approaches. 

 I have no trouble getting the FireFly down on hot summer days, but now that 

Fall is here and the air is much cooler and less moist, it is much more 

difficult to get the FireFly down.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

Chris/All

  

 I had a engine out two years ago in my VW powered  MKIIIc. I had just dropped down to duck under the air space I fly under to  get to my strip. I was around 700 ft AGL when the redrive cracked allowing the  drive belts to fall off. I didn't check my glide ratio but it was a whole lot  better than a brick. In fact I had to use flaps to get to a safe landing spot  where I landed without even scratching or flipping my plane in that  bean field.

  

 I would think the glide ratio is a  important safety issue but somewhere after a safe reliable airframe and  engine. When the chips are down after the engine stops I would be more  concerned with a low stall speed. I understand that any additional glide ratio  would have made your crash a non event and I truly feel for you and  everyone involved. Statistically you could have been further away from the  airport where even a 1000 to one glide ratio would not have helped. When it  comes to a forced landing my personal concerns are low landing or crash speeds  then protective structure. Forgive my extremes but a Boeing 737 has a fairly  good glide ratio but its stall speed and protective structure would leave me  wanting better in a off airport landing. I have heard of a Kolb  landing/crashing into a woods where the pilot only sprained a ankle while  climbing down from the top of the tree. There are slower stalling planes  but what would I have to give up? For my money you can't beat a  Kolb.   

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

I had a little

| tail wind and I estimated that the glide ratio came out close to six 

to

| one.

|

 | Jack B. Hart FF004

Morning Folks:



I have no idea what the glide ratio of my mkIII or any of the other 

Kolb  aircraft is.



More important may be the ability to judge where the aircraft will 

touch down.  A simple way to do this is pick a point on the ground and 

a point on the windshield.  Keeping the aircraft in the same attitude, 

if the point on the ground goes up the windshield, you will land 

short.  If the point on the ground goes down the windshield, you will 

land long.  If you keep that the point on the windshield and the point 

on the ground on top of each other, you will touch down at that point. 

Keep the points from seperating using pitch attitude.  Of course, this 

works power on or off.



That's how I do it, for what it is worth.  



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Kolb Glide Ratio (UNCLASSIFIED)

If you keep that the point on the windshield and the point on the ground on 

top of each other, you will touch down at that point. >>



Hi John,

I am reluctant to take issue with someone as experienced as yourself but it 

seems to me that if you are landing short and try to keep the spot on the 

windscreen and the spot on the ground lined up you could end up in a stall 

and in contrast if you are landing long you could finish up in a steep dive.



I am sure that is not what you meant but if a tyro tries it without 

understanding the ramifications he could get himself into a lot of trouble.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive

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