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IR alternators in aircraft

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: IR alternators in aircraft

Over the past week or so I've become aware of two more

incidents of uncontrolled OV conditions arising from the

failure of internally regulated alternators. I've

sent both folks copies of the original Z-24 along with

advance data on the proposed AEC9004 IR Alternator

Controller - easily incorporated into an installed OV

protection system at a later date.



For those interested, the document has been indexed

on our What's New? page and posted at:



http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf



The hardware is in hand to adapt our 3-phase

alternator drive stand . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand



to 240 VAC, single phase. All I need is a spare weekend

and a bit warmer weather out in the garage. If I can

get this big dog up on his feet, I'll rip out all the existing

instrumentation wiring and install a Z-11 mock-up. Development

of the AEC9004 controller will be the first project to

run across the drive stand.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------

        ( IF one aspires to be "world class",  )

        ( what ever you do must be exercised   )

        ( EVERY day . . .                      )

        (                  R. L. Nuckolls III  )

        ----------------------------------------

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djweberlaw(at)mindspring.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: IR alternators in aircraft

I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book.  Can I

use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems?  Or, does someone else sell

such a device?



Thanks

David Weber

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>

 To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 1/23/2007 11:22:02 PM

 Subject: IR alternators in aircraft



 

<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Over the past week or so I've become aware of two more

 incidents of uncontrolled OV conditions arising from the

 failure of internally regulated alternators. I've

 sent both folks copies of the original Z-24 along with

 advance data on the proposed AEC9004 IR Alternator

 Controller - easily incorporated into an installed OV

 protection system at a later date.



 For those interested, the document has been indexed

 on our What's New? page and posted at:



 http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf



 The hardware is in hand to adapt our 3-phase

 alternator drive stand . . .



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand



 to 240 VAC, single phase. All I need is a spare weekend

 and a bit warmer weather out in the garage. If I can

 get this big dog up on his feet, I'll rip out all the existing

 instrumentation wiring and install a Z-11 mock-up. Development

 of the AEC9004 controller will be the first project to

 run across the drive stand.

         Bob . . .



         ----------------------------------------

         ( IF one aspires to be "world class",  )

         ( what ever you do must be exercised   )

         ( EVERY day . . .                      )

         (                  R. L. Nuckolls III  )

         ----------------------------------------

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: IR alternators in aircraft

At 11:52 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<djweberlaw(at)mindspring.com>

I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book.


	


   When you say "wired per your book", I'm a bit lost. None

   of my drawings speak to or even recommend the use of

   an internally regulated alternator because I've yet

   to identify any products that meet my design goals.



   Figure Z-24 was an early attempt to cover two issues:

   (1) control - offering the pilot the same or similar

   level of control over the alternator as pilots have

   enjoyed over generators and alternators since day-one

   and (2) ov protection. However, we discovered that some

   alternators would fatally kick themselves in the

   where-it-hurts if disconnected from the rest of

   the system while under load.



   Hence, Z-24 was removed from the book and is

   referenced only in the side-article cited here . . .



http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf



   The article cautions prospective users that Z-24 as

   published has some risks . . . BUT ONLY TO THE ALTERNATOR's

   REGULATOR and only if the alternator is turned off

   under some conditions that can be easily avoided.

   Z-24 as published DOES offer OV protection which is

   a demonstrably good thing to do.



   Z-24a speaks to hardware under development that

   will slip into a Z-24 system with little additional

   work. The new hardware is intended to meet ALL of

   the design goals

 	  Quote: 	
		  Can I use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems?  Or,

does someone else sell such a device?



Thanks

David Weber


	


   Internally regulated alternators are a what-you-see-

   is-what-you-get. If it is your desire to have these

   marvelous-but-not-perfect devices operated within the

   design goals we've been using for externally regulated

   alternators then some form of external adaptation

   is necessary necessary.



   All of the parts shown in Z-24 are available from

   B&C today. All of the parts shown in Z-24a will

   be available this year. The LR3 from B&C is and

   EXTERNAL regulator/ov-protection/lv-warning

   crafted to meet historical design goals. It

   cannot be used to overcome the deficiencies

   identified in the present crop of IR alternators

   without modifying the alternator to run with

   an external regulator. B&C's products start out

   life as IR alternators and are modified to become

   ER alternators compatible with the LR3 and similar

   external regulators.



   So the short answer to your question is "no" the

   LR3C is not useful for OV protection on any IR

   alternator.



        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------

        ( IF one aspires to be "world class",  )

        ( what ever you do must be exercised   )

        ( EVERY day . . .                      )

        (                  R. L. Nuckolls III  )

        ----------------------------------------

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: IR alternators in aircraft

Bob- do you hae any voltage magnitude details or damage reports from

the field with these failures of IR alternators, or any part numbers?

How high wre the excursions and did they fry anything (else)?



This seems like an alarmingly high failure rate, given the small # of

IR alternators likely to be flying in OBAM craft, and the almost nil

failure rate I always thought attended these regualtors in automotive

use.  I wonder if there is anything specific to the aircraft

environment or application that is behind this.  Heat?  RPM?

Vibration?  Pilot load mismanagement?  Any common threads showing up

yet?



-Bill B



currently flying IR w/o OVP, pending your latest developments later this year.



On 1/24/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 11:52 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, you wrote:



 >

 ><djweberlaw(at)mindspring.com>

 >

 >

 >I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book.



    When you say "wired per your book", I'm a bit lost. None

    of my drawings speak to or even recommend the use of

    an internally regulated alternator because I've yet

    to identify any products that meet my design goals.



    Figure Z-24 was an early attempt to cover two issues:

    (1) control - offering the pilot the same or similar

    level of control over the alternator as pilots have

    enjoyed over generators and alternators since day-one

    and (2) ov protection. However, we discovered that some

    alternators would fatally kick themselves in the

    where-it-hurts if disconnected from the rest of

    the system while under load.



    Hence, Z-24 was removed from the book and is

    referenced only in the side-article cited here . . .



 http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf



    The article cautions prospective users that Z-24 as

    published has some risks . . . BUT ONLY TO THE ALTERNATOR's

    REGULATOR and only if the alternator is turned off

    under some conditions that can be easily avoided.

    Z-24 as published DOES offer OV protection which is

    a demonstrably good thing to do.



    Z-24a speaks to hardware under development that

    will slip into a Z-24 system with little additional

    work. The new hardware is intended to meet ALL of

    the design goals

 >Can I use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems?  Or,

 >does someone else sell such a device?

 >

 >Thanks

 >

 >

 >David Weber



    Internally regulated alternators are a what-you-see-

    is-what-you-get. If it is your desire to have these

    marvelous-but-not-perfect devices operated within the

    design goals we've been using for externally regulated

    alternators then some form of external adaptation

    is necessary necessary.



    All of the parts shown in Z-24 are available from

    B&C today. All of the parts shown in Z-24a will

    be available this year. The LR3 from B&C is and

    EXTERNAL regulator/ov-protection/lv-warning

    crafted to meet historical design goals. It

    cannot be used to overcome the deficiencies

    identified in the present crop of IR alternators

    without modifying the alternator to run with

    an external regulator. B&C's products start out

    life as IR alternators and are modified to become

    ER alternators compatible with the LR3 and similar

    external regulators.



    So the short answer to your question is "no" the

    LR3C is not useful for OV protection on any IR

    alternator.



         Bob . . .



         ----------------------------------------

         ( IF one aspires to be "world class",  )

         ( what ever you do must be exercised   )

         ( EVERY day . . .                      )

         (                  R. L. Nuckolls III  )

         ----------------------------------------

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: IR alternators in aircraft

At 10:01 AM 1/24/2007 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob- do you hae any voltage magnitude details or damage reports from

the field with these failures of IR alternators, or any part numbers?

How high wre the excursions and did they fry anything (else)?


	


   I think the detailed examinations as to part numbers

   and sources for the alternators is unlikely to be

   productive.



 	  Quote: 	
		  This seems like an alarmingly high failure rate, given the small # of

IR alternators likely to be flying in OBAM craft, and the almost nil

failure rate I always thought attended these regualtors in automotive

use.  I wonder if there is anything specific to the aircraft

environment or application that is behind this.  Heat?  RPM?

Vibration?  Pilot load mismanagement?  Any common threads showing up

yet?


	


   Typical of nearly ALL such events, we'll never have the

   kind of data we need to deduce root cause or even

   support or refute your suggestion as to whether

   the failure rate is alarmingly high. It's been

   perhaps 6-8 months since we heard of one here

   on the List. Two in a few weeks is not necessarily

   'alarming' unless we get two more next week.

   But even then, I'll bet there are thousands

   of IR alternators flying but with totally

   unknown pedigrees.



   Further, I have to recognize that I occupy a position

   much the same as physicians who have been accused of

   having a jaundiced view of the human condition because

   they only see and work with sick people all day.

   In the same vein of thought, I hear very few folks talk

   about how well their systems have worked for years . . .

   but if a system has a problem of any kind, I'm likely to

   hear much more about that.



   Therefore, I suggest we forego any investigations,

   discussions AND worries in and attempt to put analog

   calibrations on essentially digital data. We KNOW

   there are examples of failures of these alternators. We

   KNOW there are examples of failures in externally

   regulated alternators too. The prudent approach is to

   ASSUME that the risk of failure for either technology

   is not zero and design to tolerate it. I prefer this

   over to hoping that beliefs we hold about reliability

   are not well founded and being doubly disappointed when

   someone gets $high$ smoke in the cockpit.



   I've already identified a goal to have absolute,

   anytime, any conditions, zero risks control of the

   IR alternator. Achieving this design goal is 95%

   of the cost of the hardware. To add OV protection

   on top is only a few lines of code in a micro-

   controller that already exists to manage the

   control task. Further, adding the OV protection

   feature goes directly to the idea of failure

   tolerant design.



   Bob . . .

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