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Coordinated turns to base and final
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Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Every landing I've made in my Model IV has been  from a left-hand traffic pattern, so I can't say what my turn indicator would  show in a right-hand pattern.  When I turn from downwind to base and again  from base to final the ball swings out to the right even with the left wing down  into the turn and no pressure (except initially) on the rudder pedal.   Centering the ball would obviously require right rudder which would mean the  plane was being cross-controlled, not to mention heading in the wrong direction,  or else lowering the left wing even more which I would be a bit uncomfortable  with at this speed and elevation.  Furthermore, to successfully complete  these two 90 degree turns to the left, it's necessary to go ahead and put in  left rudder which only causes the ball to move farther to the right and away  from center.  This has been consistently the case in every landing I've  made in the Fox, at least a couple of hundred.  I've not noticed this  problem before in flying a Cessna or a little Rans S14 which I keep at  home.  What am I doing wrong here?  Thanks for your  input.

  

 Clem Nichols

 Do Not Archive

    [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Clem , 

  

 >> which would mean the plane was being  cross-controlled, not to mention heading in the wrong  direction<<

  

 So who is to say that you are not actually  skidding  in those left turns ? Is this a case of adverse yaw ?  

  

 What about when you do turns?  

 360 degree and end at same heading and same  altitude ? 

 Do both  left and right turns, Rate 1, steep  turns to 60 degree ? 

  

 Dave 

 [quote]   ---

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Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

I don't notice the problem when climbing and  turning or when turning and maintaining altitude.  It only seems to occur  when I'm in a descending turn, at least to the left.  The next time I take  the plane up I'll try to check out a descending turn to the right, and see how  the ball lines up.

  

 Clem Nichols

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Clem,



Your description sounds like me. That is until finally after 7 years of 

flying, I put a trim tab on the rudder.  Coordinated turns at pattern speeds 

was a challenge.  Now they are seat of the pants simple.  The "group" often 

flew rivers sometimes deep in canyons at about approach speeds and I always 

had one eye on the ball - I didn't want to become a sad stastistic.



Question.  Are you trimmed in yaw in flight?  If not a rudder trim tab might 

help.



Lowell



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

At 05:18 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  or else lowering the left wing even more which I would be a bit 

uncomfortable with at this speed and elevation.


	


You've got it right.



You're seeing a problem because your turns are descending. What 

causes an aircraft to turn? It's the wings and the angle of their 

lift vector. Therefore in order to turn you tilt the wings and pull 

back on the elevator to increase lift. Now, if you tilt the wings 

left, then don't pull back on the elevator, as you might do in a 

descent, the plane slides sideways, "down hill" as it were, causing 

the ball to swing right. Try it. Go up and do some steep turns or 

turns around a point. Midway through the turn relax back pressure so 

the plane straightens out. You'll fall sideways "into" the turn.



The solutions: 1) shallow your descent during the turn by increasing 

back pressure; and/or 2) roll into the turn until you are 

coordinated. In either case you can try shallowing your turn entry so 

your subsequent moves don't have to be so aggressive. That might help 

keep you "comfortable". Remember, you can run a higher bank angle in 

a descending turn without danger of an accelerated stall.



The other training I would recommend is doing a bunch of slow speed 

steep turns at altitude so you become familiar with your aircraft's 

accelerated stall behavior. Start at about 60 MIAS and do 45 degree 

steep turns both ways. Decrease speed  5 or 10 MIAS and do it again. 

Keep reducing until you can just maintain bank angle and altitude 

while in stall buffet. Stay coordinated throughout. Finally, increase 

your speed 5 MIAS again and do circles. As you circle pull hard and 

feel the plane drop out as you stall. Release pressure immediately 

and it will hook up again. It's kind of fun.



PS. Be prepared to spin. (If you stay coordinated you should be fine 

at 45 degrees.)

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Lowell:



I have a trim tab on the rudder, and yes, I am pretty well trimmed in 

flight, so I don't think that's the answer.  Thanks anyway.



Clem Nichols

Do Not Archive

---

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Guy:



I think you've hit the nail on the head.  This is the way I had thought 

about it, but had never played around with it the way you suggested.  I 

guess it's just counter-intuitive to pull back on the stick when descending, 

but that should help stop the skid.  I have an NSI EA81 with 2.34:1 gear 

drive.  I usually cut back to 2200 rpm at 1000 ft above the numbers, add in 

about 2 inches of flaperons, and then trim to descend at about 65 mph and 

500 fpm.  I suspect that doing as you suggest is going to change this a bit, 

but it will be interesting to find out.  Thanks for your response.



Clem Nichols

Do Not Archive

---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

Yup, that's a fox



that's why I like flying mine so much.  I do, according to a bunch of cessna pilos, some radical pattern work.  I generally hit about 80mph on my base and my final is usually over the numbers at or about 20ft off the ground, and yes the ball is a factor, on those step decents the ball goes off center, generally I end up taking my feet off the rudder (or actually putting on opposite rudder that what I think I need) during the turn and then a little  rudder (in the direction of the turn) when in the base to final turn, which can be as much as 60 degrees.  Yes it is different on a right turn versus a left turn in, when doing a straight and normal flight decend and don't touch the rudder peddles, you will see the ball go to the left, this is normal, called prop torque, same goes when climbing, the ball goes to the right.  My suggestion, if your going to do step decending base to final, or short pattern work, make darn sure you keep one eye on both the ball and the airspeed indicator, because in the fox, you are going to need to keep the ball as close to center as possible.  After awhile it will be second nature.



As far as the amount of touches I do, well, I generally do about 20 in a 45 minute time period. So far this year I've done 298 landings.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

I would like to caution that pilots that have not have thorough spin and 

spiral training do not make 45 deg bank turns until you feel the buffet 

even at altitude like Guy mentions.



 ESPECIALLY ON TURN BASE TO FINAL.......... You could auger in before you 

know it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Recipe for disaster.

Guy - have you trained in spins, inverted flight and spirals  and are 

proficient ?



In the interest of safe flying ,



Dave



---

kr2(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

I agree Dave,when I am making any steep turn I try my best to maintain a

good airspeed throughout the turn,without loosing any speed and if I drop

on my speed I release a little back pressure on the stick to regain my

speed,even though I might losse a little alt,but I feel more comfortable

this way because I do not have any spin training,and this helps me also

maintain a coordinated turn..



 Thanks for your input Dave



   Mark N61AC

[quote] [Original Message]

 From: dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

 To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/12/2007 10:29:27 AM

 Subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final



 



 I would like to caution that pilots that have not have thorough spin and 

 spiral training do not make 45 deg bank turns until you feel the buffet 

 even at altitude like Guy mentions.



  ESPECIALLY ON TURN BASE TO FINAL.......... You could auger in before you 

 know it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



 Recipe for disaster.

 Guy - have you trained in spins, inverted flight and spirals  and are 

 proficient ?



 In the interest of safe flying ,



 Dave



 ---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

One good thing to remember, speed is good, coordinated flight is good.  When performing a steep turn always keep the speed above 60.  When I do a base to final turn I maintain 60 or better.  If I'm at 70 I let the engine go to idle, if I'm at 60 I put in a little throttle, I guess it's like taking a school bus into a turn, put in power on the turn and the kids won't end up on the floor. Same here, a little power on the turn and you won't end up scattered all over the runway.  Main thing is, keep coordinated and the speed up and you can do a 90degree turn in a fox, although I wouldn't want to do one at 20 ft.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

At 07:22 AM 2/12/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Guy - have you trained in spins, inverted flight and spirals  and are proficient ? 	


 Yes. And I encourage everyone to obtain basic aerobatic training. It may be the best training, (second only to a glider rating,) to improve your skills and confidence, and it's fun.



 A small digression: When I learned to fly I was taught that a coordinated turn involved using the rudder. And I was told separately to be careful to maintain altitude during a turn. What I was NOT told was that a coordinated turn involved using the elevator, with the rudder a distant second. (I was flying a 152.) I used to do turns around a point with my instructor and we would sit there sliding sideways in our seats, back and forth, back and forth, as I pulled and pushed trying to maintain altitude. Or I would sit there in a "perfectly coordinated" steep turn with outside aileron and top rudder, but laying against my door so hard I was terrified it would open and I would fall out! My instructor would keep telling me, "You're over-banked, you're over-banked!" "What the hell's that?" I thought. I finally realized after a lot of solo work that the critical coordination in a turn is between the ailerons and elevator. I then spent hours aloft doing steep and shallow turns to get the feel of when and how to use elevator in a turn. And when I did aerobatic training, every clearing turn finished with a 90 degree bank, (so we could see straight down,) which was a partial split-S done with little or no elevator, but perfectly coordinated throughout.



 It's interesting how the books warn, "DON'T CROSS CONTROL IN THE PATTERN!" But they don't say why you would be cross controlled in the pattern in the first place. Clem has given the perfect example; it's often caused by descending turns, and how they feel different than level turns.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

I agree, glider training was the best. Good for both no engine and adverse yaw.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

On Feb 12, 2007, at 5:54 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Main thing is, keep coordinated and the speed up and you can do a 

 90degree turn in a fox, although I wouldn't want to do one at 20 ft.


	


Guys, I think we all agree on that. I knew that my plane was built by 

two different guys (I am the 4th owner) that I never met. A few days 

ago, I learnt that one of them died in his first Kitfox only a few 

weeks after mine did its first flight in 1994.

 From the story I got, he did a downwind low-pass over the runway, then 

turned in a sharp turn with the intend to land. This manoeuvre is 

sometimes used by glider pilot when they are too low on the weather 

side of the runway.

In the Kitfox case, the plane spun low over the ground and killed both 

the pilot and the passenger. It is the only fatal Kitfox accident in 

Norway. A sad story. 



Michel



do not archive.

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Isn't a slip a cross-control? And if I'm doing it on final, because I  

came in too high, am I not in the pattern?



Lynn



On Feb 12, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It's interesting how the books warn, "DON'T CROSS CONTROL IN THE  

 PATTERN!" But they don't say why you would be cross controlled in  

 the pattern in the first place. Clem has given the perfect example;  

 it's often caused by descending turns, and how they feel different  

 than level turns.



 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Based on the info in my previous posting and the idea of back elevator in 

the descending turn as well as keeping air speed up I can only conclude that 

it will be necessary to add more power on turning to base and also on 

turning to final which will mean a lower rate of descent and that in turn 

will mean extending my downwind a bit.  Does that make sense?  Does anyone 

have any idea why I have not noticed this problem in previous planes I've 

flown?  Could it be the flaperons?  I usually add a couple of inches of 

flaps when I reduce the power opposite the numbers and at 1000 ft. agl.  I 

certainly notice a very pronounced tendency of the plane to nose down as 

soon as the flaperons are put in, and have to adjust the elevator trim all 

the way up (on the indicator) to avoid excessive stick pressure.  I don't 

notice this nose-lowering tendency when flaps are added in planes with 

separate flaps and ailerons.



Clem Nichols

Do Not Archive

---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

Clem,

Sounds like you are very new to the kitfox.  I had those same concerns when I first started flying mine.  I was fortunate to have an instructor give me about 35 hrs in mine before venturing out on my own.  



I went on my flight for the day today and paid close attention to the yaw characteristics that you are discribing.  First off when making a steep decent the fox will yaw to the right, thus needing left rudder(ball goes left) this is perfectly normal, in fact you will get this in any airplane, try it in a cessna, I have.  Now throw in a 30degree turn to the right and the ball will go left, what you say, this is normal also, you will need to add left rudder to keep coordinated.  When I first started flying my plane the instructor kept saying your uncoordinated when I made right turns to base.  Now make the right turn close to 45degrees and you might just need to take your feet off the rudder and have the ball centered.  Go beyond 45 and you might need a small amount of right rudder to keep it centered.  Level out in the base and guess what, depending on the decent and the power level you might again need left rudder because the ball is now going into the left side.  It's all fun, learning your plane and flying to the plane.  Jump into another and it will have it's quarks.  



Onto flaps, I don't use any, but it's normal to have nose up when putting on flaps, that's how the foxes trim when there is no elevator trim.

d(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Mike ,



When I put on flaps my nose pitches down .  You will have to pull harder on 

the stick while using flaps on approach. I don't have trim .

 Mind you I notice that you have a speedwing but it should be the same .



Dave



<<Onto flaps, I don't use any, but it's normal to have nose up when putting 

on flaps, that's how the foxes trim when there is no elevator trim.>>



---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

woops, I meant nose goes down when putting on flaps.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

I must be flying like a wuss.  45 to 60 degree turns onto final!  Wow!  Not

for me.  I find when turning on final things get busy enough that I'm lucky

to grab a peek at the ASI.  Flying the plane is the most important thing for

me, not checking various and sundry instruments.  If things don't look right

I always have the throttle!



Is there any one here who uses a slip to loose altitude to a point say

twenty feet or so above touch down?  I've tried both flaps and the slip.

The flaps seem to work better but then again I have those floats acting like

a great pendulum and keeping the plane from slipping effectively.  Of course

I also have a smallish rudder and no gap seals.



Noel



[quote] --

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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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