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cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Flying today

Here is my latest video taken today with a few landings:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzg_HAuY_Rg



Enjoy,



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: Flying today

Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Flying today

scott,

I watched you videos a few time, my suggestion is:



once over the Chevrons you are flaring too early.

Flaring too hard as well.

the 601 at final developes a nice cushion under it, so 5 to 8 feet up over the runway, begin to flare, and hold it, a little less than the flare you are holding the wheels will not even sqeek, they will just role.  Just a little less falre, thats it.



enjoy tyhe plane, my family has.



Juan



--

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Flying today - elevator authority

Thanks Juan.  That brings up a good point for all those flying 601's that can't trim out with full flaps and need up trim in level flight.  Yesterday I installed the new rear brackets I made lifting the rear of the stabilizer.  



I had previously lowered the front of the horiz. stabilizer with new front brackets and it wasn't enough.  Ron (test pilot) noticed a big difference with lowering the front but wanted more so I raised the back because the front was as low as it would go.  I estimate I lowered the horiz. stabilizer about three degrees total from what it was.  It may have been up a degree or two so don't base that on what you have now.  In any case, I think the only way to get the Horiz. Stabilizer right is to fly it, then adjust it.  We gained quite a bit of speed with the adjustments so I think it may have been up a little from level.  In any case, it gave much more authority while landing and that's why his flares are bigger now.  He actually hit the tail on one of the landings and he never came close to doing that before.  Notice in the video where Ron comments he is hands off in approach with full flaps.  This was not possible before.  Now it only needs one notch of trim in level flight where before it was near the top of the indicator.



Overall, moving the stabilizer has been a big success.  I plan to add another degree in prop pitch from 10 to 11 degrees at the tip and see what that does.  Top speed right  now is around 120 mph.  We started with 85 at wide open throttle.  Climb speed now at 90 mph is 500 fpm - also an improvement since moving the horiz. stabilizer and re-pitching the prop.  Oil Temps have come down significantly with several changes to the cowl and prop pitch.  



Thanks again Juan for the suggestions - we will try this when the weather provides another opportunity here (it turned cold and windy today)



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Flying today

Scott,

  

 This is great information.  Stuff like this is why I value this list.   

  

 When you have made your final adjustments, would you be able to post the dimensional changes to the front and rear brackets? 

  

 What, if anything, has Chris Heintz said about such adjustments?  Just curious.

  

 Larry Winger

 Tustin CA

 601XL/Corvair

 Working on fuselage

 On Feb 9, 2008 6:17 AM, cookwithgas <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com (cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com (cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com)>

 

Thanks Juan.  That brings up a good point for all those flying 601's that can't trim out with full flaps and need up trim in level flight.  Yesterday I installed the new rear brackets I made lifting the rear of the stabilizer.

 

I had previously lowered the front of the horiz. stabilizer with new front brackets and it wasn't enough.  Ron (test pilot) noticed a big difference with lowering the front but wanted more so I raised the back because the front was as low as it would go.  I estimate I lowered the horiz. stabilizer about three degrees total from what it was.  It may have been up a degree or two so don't base that on what you have now.  In any case, I think the only way to get the Horiz. Stabilizer right is to fly it, then adjust it.  We gained quite a bit of speed with the adjustments so I think it may have been up a little from level.  In any case, it gave much more authority while landing and that's why his flares are bigger now.  He actually hit the tail on one of the landings and he never came close to doing that before.  Notice in the video where Ron comments he is hands off in approach with full flaps.  This was not possible before.  Now it only needs one notch of trim in level flight w!

  here before it was near the top of the indicator.



Overall, moving the stabilizer has been a big success.  I plan to add another degree in prop pitch from 10 to 11 degrees at the tip and see what that does.  Top speed right  now is around 120 mph.  We started with 85 at wide open throttle.  Climb speed now at 90 mph is 500 fpm - also an improvement since moving the horiz. stabilizer and re-pitching the prop.  Oil Temps have come down significantly with several changes to the cowl and prop pitch.

 

Thanks again Juan for the suggestions - we will try this when the weather provides another opportunity here (it turned cold and windy today)



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

 



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163148#163148



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[b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Flying today

Larry:



I'm glad it is helpful.  I got the idea from a very sharp young lady named Sabrina Pasterski.  She contacted me a few years ago from my website when she was just starting on a 601XL and introduced herself.  She had her first flight in January also and asked me if I had lowered the front of the elevator as recommended for the heavier engines.  I had not thought about this until she mentioned it.  It answered a lot of questions so I decided to try it.  



I think you should do the best you can in construction and installation of the Horiz. Stab, then fly it.  The adjustments did not take very long and the results were astonishing.  I think it took me less than an hour to build each set of brackets including polishing and priming.  I had a small (1' X 1') piece of .063" aluminum left over anyway.  



This is great fun making small adjustments then recording the results.  



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: Flying today

cool deal.  when you fly with another person in the plane now, because the plane with neurtal setting is trimmed for weight in both seats.  The way it sounds like you have it trimmed out now is for just one guy.  

When i was in test flight faze, i obviously flew by myself and had to hold the stick back abit to trim it for landing speeds.



The solution for me was putting my tool box in the back. for a slight tail heavyness.  problem solved.  

when I added 80 lbs in the passenger seat, the trim dynamics changed yet again,  no heavy left wing and trimmed out close to neutral, with out the tool box trim adjusted (wink).  

  Anyway, cool deal on the trim , just try our weight in the passenger seat and the luggage area before you change the bolt trim in the elevator.



Good Flying.



Juan



--

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Flying today

That makes sense, especially since the time to adjust is so minimal.  I have the heavier Corvair also, so I'm guessing I'll be doing the same thing over the next 12 months.

  

 Thanks,

 Larry

  

 Do Not Archive

 On Feb 9, 2008 8:27 AM, cookwithgas <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com (cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com (cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com)>

 

Larry:



I'm glad it is helpful.  I got the idea from a very sharp young lady named Sabrina Pasterski.  She contacted me a few years ago from my website when she was just starting on a 601XL and introduced herself.  She had her first flight in January also and asked me if I had lowered the front of the elevator as recommended for the heavier engines.  I had not thought about this until she mentioned it.  It answered a lot of questions so I decided to try it.

 

I think you should do the best you can in construction and installation of the Horiz. Stab, then fly it.  The adjustments did not take very long and the results were astonishing.  I think it took me less than an hour to build each set of brackets including polishing and priming.  I had a small (1' X 1') piece of .063" aluminum left over anyway.

 

This is great fun making small adjustments then recording the results.



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com





Read this topic online here:

  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Flying today

Good advice Juan.  I saved my old brackets just in case!  We have some sand bags ready for that type of testing on the next few flights.  I CAN'T wait until the 40 hours is over and I can ride along.  I may make Ron start flying from the right seat....



Scott.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: Flying today

scott,

one thing I have found useful as referance point is looking to left out the cockpit ahead of the wing. the reason is the nose feels high on the 601 at flare, and i lose the refernce on how high I am, so i look to the left of the panel to see when the plane is bout 6 feet up before setting a gentle flare.



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Flying today

I had to make a similar adjustment to my stabilizer after my first flight couple of flights, I couldn't trim out the plane in level flight. I lowered the front brackets about half and inch and that made it possible to trim for anything up to 5 degrees of flaps. I still had to hold up the nose on final approach though. Later, I added an extension to the trim tab that effectively doubled its area (I have the earlier short trim tab between the inner two elevator ribs). I bent the extension at a downward angle so that the tab would effect nose up trim more than nose down. I also added a bungee cord to just balance out the weight of the elevator. Now I can trim for most of the flight envelope. I still can't trim out completely for a no power full flaps approach with a forward CG. There is a mod to interconnect the flaps to the elevator that I may add some day, but it's not a high priority.

If I had mounted a Rotax in the nose, the original setup may have worked. Every 601 is unique, minor changes like this are to be expected in order to fine tune each airframe for its unique configuration.



I wish I could go flying, I haven't been up since December 20. I've either been out of town or the weather has been lousy. We've gotten more snow and ice in the last month than I've seen in the last several years, and when it wasn't snowing it was raining cats and dogs. This weekend, we've got two more systems coming through, sheesh.



On Feb 9, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Larry Winger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is great information.  Stuff like this is why I value this list.   

  

 When you have made your final adjustments, would you be able to post the dimensional changes to the front and rear brackets? 

  

 What, if anything, has Chris Heintz said about such adjustments?  Just curious.

  

 



 On Feb 9, 2008 6:17 AM, cookwithgas <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com (cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com (cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com)>

 

Thanks Juan.  That brings up a good point for all those flying 601's that can't trim out with full flaps and need up trim in level flight.  Yesterday I installed the new rear brackets I made lifting the rear of the stabilizer.

 

	


	






 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.



 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

rlalonde

Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 43

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Flying today

Hi Scott

  Those videos are great. Have watched them over and over!! You mention about the tail being low, and I noticed that on the last landing of the last video that you had made. Do you have some sort of a "skid plate" there just in case of it touching...or doe the tie down attachment do the trick? Just wondering.

  Keep up the great work, you are truly an inspiration to us folks that are still building.

 Love the sound of the engine....kinda like a P-51 Mustang dont you think??

 Ron

 Nova Scotia, Canada





   

 > Subject: Re: Flying today

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: cookwithgas(at)HOTMAIL.COM

 Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 06:17:42 -0800

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cookwithgas" <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Thanks Juan. That brings up a good point for all those flying 601's that can't trim out with full flaps and need up trim in level flight. Yesterday I installed the new rear brackets I made lifting the rear of the stabilizer. 

 

 I had previously lowered the front of the horiz. stabilizer with new front brackets and it wasn't enough. Ron (test pilot) noticed a big difference with lowering the front but wanted more so I raised the back because the front was as low as it would go. I estimate I lowered the horiz. stabilizer about three degrees total from what it was. It may have been up a degree or two so don't base that on what you have now. In any case, I think the only way to get the Horiz. Stabilizer right is to fly it, then adjust it. We gained quite a bit of speed with the adjustments so I think it may have been up a little from level. In any case, it gave much more authority while landing and that's why his flares are bigger now. He actually hit the tail on one of the landings and he never came close to doing that before. Notice in the video where Ron comments he is hands off in approach with full flaps. This was not possible before. Now it only needs one notch of trim in level flight w!

 here before it was near the top of the indicator.

 

 Overall, moving the stabilizer has been a big success. I plan to add another degree in prop pitch from 10 to 11 degrees at the tip and see what that does. Top speed right now is around 120 mph. We started with 85 at wide open throttle. Climb speed now at 90 mph is 500 fpm - also an improvement since moving the horiz. stabilizer and re-pitching the prop. Oil Temps have come down significantly with several changes to the cowl and prop pitch. 

 

 Thanks again Juan for the suggestions - we will try this when the weather provides another opportunity here (it turned cold and windy today)

 

 Scott Laughlin

 www.cooknwithgas.com

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163148#163148

&=============
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


   [quote][b]

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Flying today

Ron:



Just this in the back:



http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_14_04_TailSkid.JPG



http://www.cooknwithgas.com/11_11_04_TailSkid.JPG



Scott.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Flying today

Dude, that is friggin' awesome! I can't wait to finish mine. Same design, same engine. That thing looks and sounds like a a real production airplane.



Do you have a .wav file of this I can download to keep?



 	  cookwithgas wrote: 	
		  Here is my latest video taken today with a few landings:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzg_HAuY_Rg



Enjoy,



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Flying today

Andy:



Just for you -



http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Videos/Feb_8_TO_and_Landings_0001.wmv



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Flying today

Could you let us know how much down adjustment on the horizontal stabilizer you have at the moment relative the what is called for in Zenith's plans?



cookwithgas <cookwithgas(at)hotmail.com> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cookwithgas" 



Larry:



I'm glad it is helpful. I got the idea from a very sharp young lady named Sabrina Pasterski. She contacted me a few years ago from my website when she was just starting on a 601XL and introduced herself. She had her first flight in January also and asked me if I had lowered the front of the elevator as recommended for the heavier engines. I had not thought about this until she mentioned it. It answered a lot of questions so I decided to try it. 



I think you should do the best you can in construction and installation of the Horiz. Stab, then fly it. The       [quote][b]

cookwithgas

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 159

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Flying today

 	  zenithlist(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Could you let us know how much down adjustment on the horizontal stabilizer you have at the moment relative the what is called for in Zenith's plans?

	




I have fiberglass tips on my stabilizer. There is not a horizontal surface on it to determine perfect horizontal.  This was the case when I installed it in the first place.  To answer your question (above) my suggestion is to install the stabilizer as true to horizontal as possible, then fly it and adjust as necessary. 



Alternatively if you have a heavier engine, then find horizontal the best you can and tilt it forward 2 to 3 degrees, then fly, then adjust if necessary.  



I think you are looking for exact measurements but I'm not sure where I can get a point of reference from which to measure.  Even if I made a copy of my brackets and sent them to you, they probably wouldn't be right for your airplane.  Even if you use the same engine (Corvair), I built my own engine mount before the WW mounts were available and my engine is 2-inches closer to the firewall than engines with the store-bought units.  



The best I can do is tell you that my front stabilizer brackets are practically resting on the longerons and the rear brackets are an inch or so above the longerons.  



The real answer is that it is easy to re-make the brackets and adjust as required after you test-fly and then you can get it perfect. 



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com

eddies

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Flying today

Hi Scott,



When you replaced the brackets, did you have to modify the cutout in the skin of the rear turtle deck that the front of the horizontal stab sits in?



Also what if any modifications did you need to make to the fiber glass rudder fairing.



I am having the same issue, anything more than 10 degrees of flap and I cannot trim for hands off on landing and I have the larger trim tab installed



Thanks

Eddie

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Flying today

Interesting. Eddie - don't you have the lighter (relative to the Corvair)

Jabiru 3300? The speculation was that changing the angle was related to

having a "heavy" engine. Of course Scott also has a BRS which partially

counteracts the engine weight.



-- Craig



--

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Flying today

hey guys, do not lose sight of the fact that "heavy" or "light" engine means nothing other than flying weight and the way the aircraft handles on the ground. if the CG is the same - and it should be - when making comparisons, the trimming will be the same. Unless the wings or stab are installed on the fuselage at different baseline incidences, the engine weight should be a non-player. That is why heavier engines will usually have a shorter mount or lighter engines will have a longer mount - to equalize the installed moment.



Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" 



Interesting. Eddie - don't you have the lighter (relative to the Corvair)

Jabiru 3300? The speculation was that changing the angle was related to

having a "heavy" engine. Of course  Scott also has a BRS which partially

counteracts the engine weight.



-- Craig



--

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