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701 Flap Angle choices

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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Didn't the older non SP versions have two flap angle choices with on being 30 degrees or so? What was the reason for this change.  Mine will have multiple settings ala QPS kube kontrol. But is there any advantage to making a setting for for a steeper angle like the older models have? I searched the old archive but couldn't find the reason for this. 

Thanks 

Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
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"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

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Dorothy McCune

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Kevin, I might be wrong about the reason for the flapperon change but I seem to remember it was inexpirienced pilots trying to land the older 701s with the second knotch of flapperon on like a Cessna 152.  When the second knotch is deployed, the 701 truly will have the glide performance of a grand piano.  This is good if yu are trying to get into a short strip and know the technique for doing so.  If you try to lift the nose at 50 ft with the second knotch of flapperon on and the engine at idle, you are going to bend some aluminum.



It is all about maintiaining enough momentum in the descent to allow a proper round out and flare or being able to add the right amount of power at the right time.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive

--- On Sun, 10/26/08, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Didn't the older non SP versions have two flap angle

 choices with on being 30 degrees or so? What was the reason

 for this change.  Mine will have multiple settings ala QPS

 kube kontrol. But is there any advantage to making a setting

 for for a steeper angle like the older models have? I

 searched the old archive but couldn't find the reason

 for this. 

 

 

 Thanks 

 Kevin

river1

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 28

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Flap Angle choices

Hello Kevin , I have a set of first edition drawings . There's only one flap setting (30). If I have to guess the reason for the change , the previous answer sounds like the right one . 



PR

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Flap Angle choices

So it was 30  then, the photos I've seen show 3 notches, so maybe the builders made a intermediate flap setting? I had guessed that the photos showing two notches were of the SP model, guess I should have paid more attention.

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Hi Guys,

I have one of the flap handles great better mechanical advantage (sold by

Quality Sport Plane LTD. in Cloverdale Ca.). It has 4 easy to deploy

settings, about 5-10-15-and 20-degrees. At 20 degrees I feel like the plane

is standing still when it lands and it will drop very rapidly if you don't

keep up the speed or if you don't give it some power. It "STOLs" great, but

you really have to work at keeping it from dropping too fast.  



Doug MacDonald is right when he says it has the flying characteristics of a

piano.

Les



[quote] --

jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: 701 flap angle choices

I added a second notch to mine. I see why  Zenith took the second notch out...while the second setting does add some  noticeable stability when approaching at very slow IAS, it can and does fall out  from you without much warning and the likely result is crunching it if it  happens very high and you don't quickly catch it with power. 

  

 Joe

   [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Hello Kevin,

  

 First hand experience:  Is not needed at all, in fact dangerous.  We made the flap handle with the 3 slots, only reason:  "Why not? Was there in the older planes"



 When we were very confident with the handling of the 701 (lots of landings and touch and goes later)  when we thought we were very proficient with the first slot (15 deg) we tested a few (30) slot aproaches and short landings...

  

 The aproach was so steep and the light airplane loosed so much speed (inertia) that just imagining an engine failure 30 to 50 feet above the ground will give us the feeling of very easy to get in a position of risk of breaking the plane and a few bones.  

 More than little (too much for me)  power and nose down position, is needed just to keep tha plane in the 50 mph approach and at flair. No needs for a "hands full" situation in flair.

  

 Is better to learn (and practice as much as possible) a good 15deg flap approach and short landing technique eficiently, that taking the risk to damage the plane (and yourself) seriously  with the 30 deg position.  There are several videos where you can watch efficient short landings in the "normal" 701 using the 15 deg position .

  

 In other words, is like depoying a drag chute in the air.   For me, not practical and really not neaded at all,  but is your choice.

  

 Hope this helps. 

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 701 912S  landing at high altitude (5,000 ft ASL plus) strips.  

 223 hrs and counting.

  

 

--- On Sun, 10/26/08, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net>

Subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 9:00 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "kmccune"

<kmccune(at)somtel.net>



Didn't the older non SP versions have two flap angle choices with on being

30 degrees or so? What was the reason for this change.  Mine will have multiple

settings ala QPS kube kontrol. But is there any advantage to making a setting

for for a steeper angle like the older models have? I searched the old archive

but couldn't find the reason for this. 

Thanks 

Kevin



--------

Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things

that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.

Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.

Dream. Discover.

	
	


         [quote][b]

jgswartout(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Anybody have a view on this issue as for the 801?



 On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com (ggower_99(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]     Hello Kevin,

  

 First hand experience:  Is not needed at all, in fact dangerous.  We made the flap handle with the 3 slots, only reason:  "Why not? Was there in the older planes"



 When we were very confident with the handling of the 701 (lots of landings and touch and goes later)  when we thought we were very proficient with the first slot (15 deg) we tested a few (30) slot aproaches and short landings...

   

 The aproach was so steep and the light airplane loosed so much speed (inertia) that just imagining an engine failure 30 to 50 feet above the ground will give us the feeling of very easy to get in a position of risk of breaking the plane and a few bones.  

  More than little (too much for me)  power and nose down position, is needed just to keep tha plane in the 50 mph approach and at flair. No needs for a "hands full" situation in flair.

  

 Is better to learn (and practice as much as possible) a good 15deg flap approach and short landing technique eficiently, that taking the risk to damage the plane (and yourself) seriously  with the 30 deg position.  There are several videos where you can watch efficient short landings in the "normal" 701 using the 15 deg position .

   

 In other words, is like depoying a drag chute in the air.   For me, not practical and really not neaded at all,  but is your choice.

  

 Hope this helps. 

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 701 912S  landing at high altitude (5,000 ft ASL plus) strips.  

 223 hrs and counting.

  

 

--- On Sun, 10/26/08, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>

Subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 9:00 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "kmccune"

<kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>



Didn't the older non SP versions have two flap angle choices with on being

30 degrees or so? What was the reason for this change.  Mine will have multiple

settings ala QPS kube kontrol. But is there any advantage to making a setting

for for a steeper angle like the older models have? I searched the old archive

but couldn't find the reason for this. 

Thanks 

Kevin



--------

Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things

that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.

Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.

Dream. Discover.

	
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: 701 flap angle choices

I guess the different notches confuse me.  The  newer kits either have the flapperons set as 'up' or 'down!'  Is tht 0 and  15 degrees??  

 I assume you added another flapperons notch further  than the factory 15 degrees.  

 To each his/her own I guess, but I find I can land  and take off over a real 50 foot obstacle so short that in all honesty I haven't  even messed with any flapperon setting during the first half of my test  flighting.   Haven't even touched the knob yet!  If the one and  only flap setting works as advertised during my next 15 hours, I can't see how  I'd ever need anything to land even shorter. Hah!  

 My kitfox has no "notches' for its flapperons, but  is a friction thing that allows one to set it anywhere you want, so you can fine  tune the settings for speed, use it as a trim tab  or put in as much  flapperon as you might want for landing or takeoff.  

 Like the 701 though, it slips so well and lands so  short that although I fly out of some short strips with big trees at the ends, I  can't see ever having the need to land or take off in even shorter  distances.

 It's an interesting topic!

 [quote]   ---

b.carl@sympatico.ca

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 77

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Built my 701 in 94 to plans (1/91 -#2226) three notches; UP, 15', 30'..I had 

just retired from the Air Force and last experience was fighters and 2.5" 

glide slopes. Needless to say getting use to the 701 on approach with power 

OFF was traumatic. I eventually got to practice full flap landing on wheels 

after about 15 hrs even did a few with power OFF.

During the first 100 hrs I was not too crazy about using full flaps; I did 

not believe they helped much on TO or landing. I mainly used the 15' slot. 

By then I was on floats and eventually learned that full flaps shortened the 

TO by a significant amount. I won't elaborate but it has to do with the fact 

that floats prevent rotating to a high angle of attack and therefore the 

extra lift from the flaps is a bonus. I now use 30' at all time except in 

strong gusty winds and raise to 10' in ground effect after TO.

I found the ZAC flap lever design awkward so made my own (pic attached. with 

5 notches, UP, 10', 20', 27', 37'. . I have used the 5th notch a few times 

but eventually locked it out with a bolt. Anything above 30' can be 

dangerous because it limit role control. With the flappers down much above 

30', any further deflection for role control risk stalling the down going 

flapper thereby introducing control reversal. Control is possible using 

small aileron inputs and aggressive rudder but the benefit of 37' of flaps 

is questionable.

On the related subjects of where to rig the flaps and reflexing the flappers 

for minimum drag I make the following comments.  My brother was a DH Beaver 

commercial pilot and on that a/c he could adjust the hydraulically operated 

flaps with the hand pump for optimum speed under different loads. I've 

experimented with rigging and reflex on my 701 and conclude the following;

    1. Optimum adjustment varies with load, C of G, and speed.

    2. Without an infinitely adjustable flap lever I rig the flaps and 

stab/elevator for my usual cross-country cruise speed.

    3. I aim to have the Stab/elevator close to neutral when  2 above is 

achieved;  the flappers should not be pitching the nose down and the 

stab/elevator pitching the nose up or vis versa, that's a speed brake and 

not needed in a 701.

Carl

701/912

---

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jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: 701 flap angle choices

I always use the second notch when landing on my 250 foot  strip and usually on the 500 foot strip.

  

 Joe

  

 >To each his/her own I guess, but I find I can land and  take off over a 

[quote]real 50 foot obstacle so short that in all honesty I  haven't even messed 

with any flapperon setting during the first half of  my test flighting

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: 701 Flap angle choices

Agreed. I run my elevator down cable as loose as I can  stand it to keep from limiting the aileron travel when using the second  notch...since the elevator cables tighten when extending flaps and applying  right aileron because of the off center control apparatus, effectively  restricting right aileron application. The limited roll control can bite on  a low speed high pitch go around with a 912s, as the left yaw/roll tendency is  strong...maybe another reason ZAC didn't want the 701 operated with the second  notch. I am very careful with pitch/power when going around with 2 notches  out...all this from my feeble momory...but I think I got it right.

  

 Joe

  

 >but eventually locked it out with a bolt. Anything  above 30' can be 

[quote]dangerous because it limit role control.  

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Flap Angle choices

Well thanks for all the input guys, I think I'll build it like the QSP and B.Carls pictured. I thinking of using 0, 5, 10, 15 and 20 or 25 degrees.  The Kube from  QSP has 0, 5, 10, 15 and 20. I may never use the 20/25 setting, but I won't know if I don't build it, I'm leaning towards the 20 degree to keep the ailerons effective . I will be building floats down the road, so the 25 may be a benefit there. And not to worry guys the first bunch of times I'll test it will be with plenty of recovery room and ONLY after  lots and lots of standard landings. If I don't like it I'll block it off. 



Thanks

 

Kevin

keystone(at)gci.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Hi



I always take off my 801 with 10-15 degrees flaps.  It gets quite a bit of

lift without out much drag at this setting.  It flys a slower with a little

flap but you do not get into the problems you have with full flaps.  I also

get about 100 fpm extra climb with the take off flap setting.  Just remember

to lower them when you get to cruise.  



I have taken my 801 with full flaps in the Valdez May Day Fly-in.  The 801

flys amazingly slow with full flaps but the adverse yaw needs to be

considered.  You can rotate at 20 mph.  You will need more nose up trim than

without flaps.  Once you get it off the ground you put the nose down and get

the flaps up. 



I almost always land with full flaps.  OK, I will admit it; I drag it in

with power.  The other plane I fly is a 185 on amphibs and I drag it in with

power.  The 185 on amphibs will not climb with full flaps!  With both

airplanes if you pull the power you need to head toward the runway

immediately!  You need to keep your speed up and use the speed energy to

flare.  



If you are going to land with full flaps, you should practice full flap go

around at altitude because it takes quite a bit of force to overcome the

nose up trim.  I normally don't trim it out completely on final.  



As I have said here before do not land with full flaps in a cross wind!     



On floats I did not have enough elevator control to use full flaps on

landing.  I normally landed with 15 to 20 degrees flaps.  Take off was

always with 10-15 degrees flaps



I have installed the longer horizontal tail and have VGs on the bottom of

the horizontal stabilizer.  I have the slats on.  



Bill Wilcox

Valdez, AK

N801BW

405 hrs

In winter storage

Working on the engine cowl.



Anybody have a view on this issue as for the 801?

jgswartout(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

Bill,, I'm glad you mentioned you have the 10 ft tail.  I was told by one of the Heintz brothers several years ago that the 801 could not be rotated at less than 40 mph--not a good feature when you can't do a short/rough T.O. with a bush plane!  I'm glad to hear that the bigger HT has taken care of that.  I'll have to order one and build it this winter.  I'm starting painting in a couple weeks, then final engine installation and cowl fitting.

   

 Also I meant to thank you for that very generous and useful and detailed report you gave on the Full Lotus installation.  I plan to do that after a a season on wheels.

  

 John

 On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Keystone Engineering LLC <keystone(at)gci.net (keystone(at)gci.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: Keystone Engineering LLC <keystone(at)gci.net (keystone(at)gci.net)>

 



Hi



I always take off my 801 with 10-15 degrees flaps.  It gets quite a bit of

lift without out much drag at this setting.  It flys a slower with a little

flap but you do not get into the problems you have with full flaps.  I also

 get about 100 fpm extra climb with the take off flap setting.  Just remember

to lower them when you get to cruise.



I have taken my 801 with full flaps in the Valdez May Day Fly-in.  The 801

flys amazingly slow with full flaps but the adverse yaw needs to be

 considered.  You can rotate at 20 mph.  You will need more nose up trim than

without flaps.  Once you get it off the ground you put the nose down and get

the flaps up.



I almost always land with full flaps.  OK, I will admit it; I drag it in

 with power.  The other plane I fly is a 185 on amphibs and I drag it in with

power.  The 185 on amphibs will not climb with full flaps!  With both

airplanes if you pull the power you need to head toward the runway

 immediately!  You need to keep your speed up and use the speed energy to

flare.



If you are going to land with full flaps, you should practice full flap go

around at altitude because it takes quite a bit of force to overcome the

 nose up trim.  I normally don't trim it out completely on final.



As I have said here before do not land with full flaps in a cross wind!



On floats I did not have enough elevator control to use full flaps on

 landing.  I normally landed with 15 to 20 degrees flaps.  Take off was

always with 10-15 degrees flaps



I have installed the longer horizontal tail and have VGs on the bottom of

the horizontal stabilizer.  I have the slats on.

  [quote][b]

keystone(at)gci.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: 701 Flap Angle choices

John



When I was rotating at 20 mph the plane was at empty weight plus me and 10

gallons of fuel.  I could force the nose down then it would spring back up.

Like they say on TV don't try this at home.  Or at least go practice with

1/2 flaps then 3/4 flaps then with full flaps on a calm day in the middle of

a big runway.  



The Heintz brother is correct at normal operating weights unless you have a

real rearward CG you cannot lift the nose before 40 mph.  I have only

experienced the nose coming up easily once.  I was heavy and rearward on my

CG.  The nose came up very easily at very low speeds.  I held the nose off

but kept the plane on until I had more than normal flying speed.  In my

experience when you are exploring the very edges of the weight and balance

envelope you should fly in the middle of the flight envelope.   



 Here is a post I did about two years ago regarding the small tail, large

tail and VGs.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  As someone who has flown the short and long elevators with and without VGs,

I feel I may have something to add to the discussion.  The plane flys fine

with all of the versions.  I found I was able to fly slower, stabilized

approaches as the elevator became more effective.  With the small tail I

found the plane sensitive in pitch at very slow speeds which made it

difficult to stabilize a very slow approach.  I am now able to fly short

final at 45 mph.  Before I was 50 mph or so.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Even with the large tail with VGs I still cannot raise the nose with power.

When the nose comes up the 801 will fly.  The tail is just not in the prop

wash.


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  If the original tail is rated as 100.  The original tail with VGs is

probably 125. The larger tail is probably 130.  The larger tail with VGs is

probably 140. Realize this is a subjective rating system and I cannot back

it up with data. Well, I take that back.  At the Valdez May day fly-in

competition with the original tail I was able to take off in 130'.  With

the bigger tail with VGs I got off in 113.5'


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  I still run out of trim at slow approaches speeds.  I'm contemplating

adding VG to the top to try to increase the effectiveness of the trim tab.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  One more word to the wise.  Do not fly approaches with full flaps when

there is a significant crosswind!!!  Keep the flaps up and the 801 handles

crosswinds very well.


	


 Bill Wilcox

 Valdez, AK

 N801BW

 405 hrs

 In winter storage

 Working on the engine cowl

Time: 12:05:03 PM PST US

From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: 701 Flap Angle choices



Bill,, I'm glad you mentioned you have the 10 ft tail.  I was told by one of

the Heintz brothers several years ago that the 801 could not be rotated at

less than 40 mph--not a good feature when you can't do a short/rough T.O.

with a bush plane!  I'm glad to hear that the bigger HT has taken care of

that.

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