Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

jetting a 582 and a choped elbow
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Nothing new, it has been this rich all along but lattley I wory about carbin. Probbly the egt is not acuret what realy bugs me about the idle jet is it is not marked ? How do you know if it is right from leaf when you order one?  and it is the most costly one.  I flew for .6 hr today mostly at 1275 egt and 50 oat  the plugs still looked rich that was at 5500 rpm  slower would make the temps come down to 1200 at 5100rpm  do you need to move the egt hole when you chop the  muffler? should I order a new egt gage and jets?    mal mod 2 582 w pre mix   



--- On Sat, 10/17/09, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com> wrote:

[quote]

From: dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Subject: Re: jetting a 582 and a  choped elbow

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 11:06 AM



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <[url=/mc/compose?to=dave(at)cfisher.com]dave(at)cfisher.com[/url]>



The elbow and Y pipe have been shorted about 2.5 " approx.   That is a huge difference and I have proven it many times over. 



Regardless,  your problem is odd -- black plugs and EGT 1275f ? 



something askew here.  What have you done to make this happen lately?   I have seen some adjust needles and put the needle on top off plastic clip and get a similar problem.



MAke sure your oil injection marks line up at IDLE ......... and the lever travels smoothly through out the throttle movement.

Dave

[quote="brubakermal(at)yahoo.com"]5 plus HP sounds like allot to loose becous of such a little adjustment to  the elbow. That should effect gas consumption  or change the power band or the echo back prechur and in turn accurate EGT readings.  Mystatic rpm is 5800  and at climb out I get6200 at 55 mph and 6600 max rpm flat and level    yet my egt,s are 1275 and the plugs are still very black and wet  w/ penz oil  50 to one pre mix 



--- On Wed, 10/14/09, akflyer  wrote:

[quote]

From: akflyer 

Subject: Re: jetting a 582

To: [url=/mc/compose?to=kitfox-list(at)matronics.com]kitfox-list(at)matronics.com[/url]

Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:17 PM



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"  



and make sure the oil pump line up marks are correct.  I leaned mine out just a tad and got better plug color and performance.  I do the same on all my snowmachines as well.  I measure the gas put in the tank, and the oil put in, then  figure the ratio and get it to match as close to 50:1 as possible.  I know the pump actually gives closer to 100:1 at idle, but 99% of the time the engine is running in the 50:1 range so I set the adjustment accordingly.



--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

Soldotna AK

Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1450

#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



hander outer of humorless darwin awards





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267934#267========================http://www.matronics.com/Nav=               - MATRONICS cs.com" bsp;               -Matt Dralle, List Adontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267934#267934)

          

 	  Quote: 	
		   [b]


	




--------

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

http://www.cfisher.com/

Awesome *New Forum *

http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth  

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268313#268========================http://www.matronics.com/Nav=               - MATRONICS cs.com" bsp;               -Matt Dralle, List Adontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

          [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

No you dont need to move the EGT probe when the elbow was chopped.  The EGT probe gets installed at X distance from the face of the piston.



If the plugs are black, and the EGTS are high then I would think of the pitch on the prop.  What is the MAX RPM you can turn on the ground and in the air?

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

I may have overlooked it, but has anyone confirmed how these "black  

plug readings" were obtained? Was it after a lengthy taxi back to the  

hangar...if so, shame on the mechanic.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying

do not archive



On Oct 18, 2009, at 6:22 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 No you dont need to move the EGT probe when the elbow was chopped.   

 The EGT probe gets installed at X distance from the face of the  

 piston.



 If the plugs are black, and the EGTS are high then I would think of  

 the pitch on the prop.  What is the MAX RPM you can turn on the  

 ground and in the air?



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1450

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 68448#268448

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

To answer you both  the max rpm is 5850 static and 6300 climbing and 6600 now in colder air flying flat and level.    there is lots of carbine built up in the manifold and jug just 3/8 of an inch from the piston all the way out and not so much a long taxi back to the hanger but carbon built up allot on the plugs after 31 hrs on my last set and just as black after only6 hrs and one needle adjustment since my last plug change   malcolm



--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, October 18, 2009, 11:49 PM



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <[url=/mc/compose?to=lynnmatt(at)jps.net]lynnmatt(at)jps.net[/url]>



I may have overlooked it, but has anyone confirmed how these "black plug readings" were obtained? Was it after a lengthy taxi back to the hangar...if so, shame on the mechanic.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying

do not archive



On Oct 18, 2009, at 6:22 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <[url=/mc/compose?to=akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com]akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com[/url]>

 

 No you dont need to move the EGT probe when the elbow was chopped.  The EGT  probe gets installed at X distance from the face of the piston.

 

 If the plugs are black, and the EGTS are high then I would think of the pitch on the prop.  What is the MAX RPM you can turn on the ground and in the air?

 

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1450

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

 

 hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268448#268448

 

 

 

 

 

nbsp;--> http://=             - List Contribution                 -Matt Dralle, Listm/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution============
	






	


            [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:47 am Post subject: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

5800 static is a bit low.  This will  contribute to the darker plugs BUT  how can you have EGT 1250 and black plugs? Either EGT is messed up  but on both cylinder that unlikely .  Check your needles first and verify what notch the clips are on and that you have the O rings on them. And also that the white plastic space it on TOP of the needle and clip.



I would  set your static for 6000 to 6300  rpm to start with. What prop do you have ? 

What plugs are you running ?   Should be  BR8ES and Solid tipped NOT alum tipped. and Gapped at .018 .  IF you buy from Rotax they are pre gapped at 018 and should last a 582 with oil injection 100 to 150 hours. 



http://www.cfisher.com/152hournkg.html



http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/



Notice alum tip  here  worn flat ......http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/ngk.htm



Your 582 will likely need to have needles set for winter soon .  Bottom notch on needles should be good if you have stock jetting.



I would not worry about a muffler mod unless you understand pipe tuning well.  Skystars cut the Y pipe and Elbow to fit inside the cowl.  You will have to mod the cowl if you lengthen the header part of the exhaust. ( header is the first part from ports to the start of the cone.  You need to add 1.5 to 2.5 inches  but it will be challenging  for you .  





Take some pics of this carbon build up and send it or post it .



 	  Quote: 	
		  To answer you both the max rpm is 5850 static and 6300 climbing and 6600 now in colder air flying flat and level. there is lots of carbine built up in the manifold and jug just 3/8 of an inch from the piston all the way out and not so much a long taxi back to the hanger but carbon built up allot on the plugs after 31 hrs on my last set and just as black after only6 hrs and one needle adjustment since my last plug change malcolm

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Malcolm, even though there are different opinions  out there, your numbers aren't far enough off to explain the carbon  buildup.  One of the big problems of the 582s is that they were supplied  with idle jets that were way to rich.  On them you will find a  number.  Look very closely with a magnifying glass then talk to Lockwood,  or one of the suppliers about getting a couple numbers leaner.  They're a  little bit pricey, but will smooth out your idle considerably.  Then again,  now that cold weather with denser air has arrived it may get better all by  itself.  Also, you might also suspect your EGT gauge is reading a bit  high.  Maybe you can borrow a spare to double check it.  

 Also, as I recall, Barstow does have a fairly long  taxi back which would also contribute.

 One little trick is to take some tools with you,  fly to a seldom used grass strip somewhere and when you have the runway made,  shut the engine off on short final, stop and make a plug reading without any  taxiing.  See if you still have black plugs.  Ensure you fly long  enough to burn off the soot that is already on them.  Better yet, start off  with clean plugs.

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert,  in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning  economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

  

 [quote]   ---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

The best plug reading you can get is to warm the plane up on the old plugs, shut down, put in new plugs, start up, firewall it and climb to altitude WOT then shut the mags off and glide in.  This will give you the truest plug reading you can get.



An alternative would be to tie the plane down and put in new plugs, firewall it for a minute or two then shut down and read the plugs.



One issue with premix.. you are always at 50:1.  With a pump, you are closer to 100:1 at idle.  The oil you are burning plays a HUGE part in the carbon build up.  Some oils burn much much cleaner than others.



I would lean towards faulty EGT readings.  If you only turn 5800 static, and maybe 6300 in the air, you are loading the engine too much and your EGT's should be closer to 950 - 1000 at that loading.  I am thinking you are running way fat and shooting way too much unburned (or still burning) fuel out the exhaust giving elevated EGT's.   This was a demon we chased on my brothers KF when we swapped to the "winter" jets.  EGTs went way up and it was damn near impossible to keep them under 1200 even with the IFA prop and loading the engine way down.  I think he called CPS and talk to Mike who explained the high EGT if your way to rich thing to him.  Dropped back down from 175 to 170 mains and the issue went away.



I run 165 in the summer and 170 in the winter, no matter how cold it gets and the plugs and EGT's stay perfect.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Agreed.  The plug reading is the final proof of engine performance.  When I 

raced desert bikes (previous life) we would run them hard for about 10-20 

minutes, then make an immediate shut down to make a plug check.  Most 

accurate for actual conditions.  I suggested this several years ago to the 

list and got some flack about the dangers of doing it, blah blah, etc. and I 

don't think it was taken seriously by most.  However, I still see no great 

risk why one couldn't practice a real world engine out by shutting down on 

downwind with a good long runway, have your tools ready, pull over off to 

the side and do a quick check.  Of course, it's best to announce intentions, 

wear goggles, hearing protection, inform fire department...   

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The best plug reading you can get is to warm the plane up on the old 

 plugs, shut down, put in new plugs, start up, firewall it and climb to 

 altitude WOT then shut the mags off and glide in.  This will give you the 

 truest plug reading you can get.

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

When I bought my first Avid B C it had a 532.  Guy that had it had never flown it and didn't really know anything about the plane.  They had the redline on the EGT at 1300 or 1350 and I thought that was odd C but figured I would sort that out later.  After I started to fly the plane (after new seals in the engine ect) EGT temps were always wanting to go over 1250 in cruise or climb.  I did everything I could think of to lower them C even changed the 532 to a just gone through 582 C  larger jets C more pitch in the prop C sent 2 different EGT gauges to Westak to be recalabrated C different probes C and the temps still were high C and the plugs were BLACK.  There was no question that I was running to rich C but the EGT temps said otherwise.  Eventually I bought the Avid MK IV C it had a a 582 in it also C no problems with keeping temps in line with standard jetting.  Later I changed the 582 to a Jabiru engine.  Got to thinking about things and so I put the muffler from the MK IV on to the B C immediatly the EGT temps showed lower on  the gauge and from then on I could fly with standard jetting and EGT temps showed what they should be (1050-1150).  I used the same Y pipe in both instances so the probe location didn't change C and there was nothing I could see different in the two different mufflers.  No damage visable or other than factory welding on the first muffler.  No doubt in my mind that the muffler was causing a higher reading of the EGTs.  I know that doesn't make sence C and this is the second time I wrote the message C the first time I deleted it without sending C because it doesn't really make sence to have a higher than actual temp reading C but I saw it for myself.  At that time I had flown about 200 hrs with 2 stroke engines and did all the maintainence on them myself C so I wasn't a complete newbee at it either.  Take care C  Jim Chuk  Avids C  Kitfox 4  Mn.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

 From: dave(at)cfisher.com

 Date: Mon C 19 Oct 2009 02:47:37 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

 5800 static is a bit low. This will contribute to the darker plugs BUT how can you have EGT 1250 and black plugs? Either EGT is messed up but on both cylinder that unlikely . Check your needles first and verify what notch the clips are on and that you have the O rings on them. And also that the white plastic space it on TOP of the needle and clip.

 I would set your static for 6000 to 6300 rpm to start with. What prop do you have ? 

 What plugs are you running ? Should be BR8ES and Solid tipped NOT alum tipped. and Gapped at .018 . IF you buy from Rotax they are pre gapped at 018 and should last a 582 with oil injection 100 to 150 hours. 

 http://www.cfisher.com/152hournkg.html

 http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/

 Notice alum tip here worn flat ......http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/ngk.htm

 Your 582 will likely need to have needles set for winter soon . Bottom notch on needles should be good if you have stock jetting.

 I would not worry about a muffler mod unless you understand pipe tuning well. Skystars cut the Y pipe and Elbow to fit inside the cowl. You will have to mod the cowl if you lengthen the header part of the exhaust. ( header is the first part from ports to the start of the cone. You need to add 1.5 to 2.5 inches but it will be challenging for you . 

 Take some pics of this carbon build up and send it or post it .

 > To answer you both the max rpm is 5850 static and 6300 climbing and 6600 now in colder air flying flat and level. there is lots of carbine built up in the manifold and jug just 3/8 of an inch from the piston all the way out and not so much a long taxi back to the hanger but carbon built up allot on the plugs after 31 hrs on my last set and just as black after only6 hrs and one needle adjustment since my last plug change malcolm 

 --------

 Rotax Dealer C Ontario Canada

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Awesome *New Forum *

 http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

 Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth 

 http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=268493#268493

&gt=======================

&g==================

[quote] 

 		 	   		  Hotmail: Trusted email with powerfu01/' target='_new'>Sign up now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

I've been keeping this little incident a secret up until now, but  

can't keep my mouth shut any longer. While this doesn't come under  

the heading of practice, it was a real world situation.



I needed 2 hours of flight a couple of weeks ago, so I could change  

my oil at my chosen time of 25 hours. I checked the fuel....8 gallons  

exactly...enough for a conservative 2 hour flight at my recent  

3.0--3.8 gph. I took off and headed north, thinking of doing a half- 

hour in each of four directions, and being near home when the 2 hours  

were up. It was great flying weather, and it was mostly hands off  

flying. I kept checking my Northstar fuel flow gauge for remaining  

fuel and also checking the sight gauges in the wings...plenty of fuel  

according to the sight gauges, and adequate, according to the  

Northstar gauge. Getting near the end of my time allotment, I saw  

B25, an airport  just into Indiana from the Michigan state line. I  

was curious about this airport, so I circled the field a couple of  

times trying to see if there was a building large enough for a B-25  

plane, or if one was sitting outside. Seeing nothing along those  

lines, I figured I'd better head for home, and turned toward the  

northeast. I had flown in this direction for about 3 minutes, still  

looking outside and taking in the sights, when I caught sight of my  

low fuel warning light which was brightly lit. My clear vent line up  

to the right-hand fuel tank was empty, so I knew I was in deep do-do.  

I hit the NRST button on my GPS and saw Williams County (0G6) as the  

closest airport. This airport is just east of Bryan, Ohio, and 13  

miles away from my (then) present location. The engine was still  

running, and I was at about 4,000 feet MSL. I pointed it in that  

direction, and hoped for the best, all the while looking for a place  

to land. I had covered about 7 miles when the engine stopped. I had  

tried to position the plane to allow the fuel to get to the port, but  

also hoping to make the airport, which meant "quit screwing around  

with the fuel and streamline the plane for best glide". Now I  

*really* started to look for fields. I could tell that I didn't want  

to try to stretch the glide, because this would put  

me...possibly...right over Bryan, Ohio, and that was not appealing at  

all. I'd covered maybe another mile when I saw a long green stretch  

of land between all the brown fields of beans growing in the area. I  

said to my self that this was gonna become an airport in the next few  

minutes, and started to slip down toward it. The wind was from about  

220° and this strip of green was running 9-27. I was north of it, and  

I didn't want to try landing into the wind because that would have  

eaten up too much altitude. So here I was slipping it down to the  

west end of this "soon-to-become airport" at a pretty good clip, and  

finally had to straighten it out and put it down. When it finally  

touched down, I was going pretty damn fast, and got all over the  

brakes and it pulled to the right and headed for the beans. I got  

that straightened out and kept braking hard, with the nose of the  

plane getting too damn close to the ground...I'd never had the tail  

that high before on the ground, and I was pretty sure that I'd have  

to turn it into the beans to arrest the speed if I got much closer to  

the road which was coming up fast. Man, stuff was going by fast and  

the road was getting bigger, when it finally slowed enough to drop  

the tail. When I got out and looked around, I saw a plywood sign in  

the shape of an airplane, a wind sock, and a long building that  

looked like a series of hangars. I had landed at an real-life  

airport, complete with porta-potty and way too-long (thank God )  

grass. (I later found out that this is called "Al's Place", by the  

locals) There was nobody at this airport, but I made a call and a  

nice man from 0G6 came out with fuel....he knew exactly where I had  

landed. I'll quit the story there because that was the important  

part...the landing and getting the fuel so I could continue home.



All this is to point out that what Deke mentioned is true....it is  

( in my opinion) excellent practice to do what he said, although try  

to do it when you already have the airport in sight, and try to do it  

into a headwind, not with a tailwind like I was forced to do. I also  

didn't have my goggles nor any hearing protection, which would have  

been nice to block out the screams coming from the cabin.



By the way, what got me messed up was relying on the sight gauges  

more than the Northstar gauge. The fuel splashes up into those sight  

gauges, giving a false sense of more fuel than is actually there. And  

I had set the "GAS" reading on the Northstar to read 24 gallons when  

I had filled it the last time, not taking into account the unusable  

fuel. When I was circling over B25, I had the right wing up, and this  

was forcing the right tank to empty, and the left tank to unport.  

When I leveled off and headed for home, the right tank was empty, and  

the left tank was taking its own sweet time to re-supply the header  

tank with fuel, if indeed it had any to offer.



I've since then only entered 20 gallons into the Northstar under  

"GAS" after a fill-up, and only trust the sight gauges when the plane  

is rock steady.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Oct 19, 2009, at 9:56 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   However, I still see no great risk why one couldn't practice a real  

 world engine out by shutting down on downwind with a good long  

 runway, have your tools ready, pull over off to the side and do a  

 quick check.  Of course, it's best to announce intentions, wear  

 goggles, hearing protection, inform fire department...   

 Deke

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Lynn, Thanks for the insite. I have made a habit in the C150 I am taking

lessons in to make a point of, not having "enough " gas for the mission,

but, having enough gas to return with a minimum of 10 gallons still on

board. That was after another club member alerted that I had left the plane

with only 2 gals of gas in it. It has 3 galllons unuseable fuel!



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



[quote] 



 I've been keeping this little incident a secret up until now, but can't

 keep my mouth shut any longer. While this doesn't come under the heading of

 practice, it was a real world situation.



 I needed 2 hours of flight a couple of weeks ago, so I could change my oil

 at my chosen time of 25 hours. I checked the fuel....8 gallons

 exactly...enough for a conservative 2 hour flight at my recent 3.0--3.8 gph.

 I took off and headed north, thinking of doing a half-hour in each of four

 directions, and being near home when the 2 hours were up. It was great

 flying weather, and it was mostly hands off flying. I kept checking my

 Northstar fuel flow gauge for remaining fuel and also checking the sight

 gauges in the wings...plenty of fuel according to the sight gauges, and

 adequate, according to the Northstar gauge. Getting near the end of my time

 allotment, I saw B25, an airport  just into Indiana from the Michigan state

 line. I was curious about this airport, so I circled the field a couple of

 times trying to see if there was a building large enough for a B-25 plane,

 or if one was sitting outside. Seeing nothing along those lines, I figured

 I'd better head for home, and turned toward the northeast. I had flown in

 this direction for about 3 minutes, still looking outside and taking in the

 sights, when I caught sight of my low fuel warning light which was brightly

 lit. My clear vent line up to the right-hand fuel tank was empty, so I knew

 I was in deep do-do. I hit the NRST button on my GPS and saw Williams County

 (0G6) as the closest airport. This airport is just east of Bryan, Ohio, and

 13 miles away from my (then) present location. The engine was still running,

 and I was at about 4,000 feet MSL. I pointed it in that direction, and hoped

 for the best, all the while looking for a place to land. I had covered about

 7 miles when the engine stopped. I had tried to position the plane to allow

 the fuel to get to the port, but also hoping to make the airport, which

 meant "quit screwing around with the fuel and streamline the plane for best

 glide". Now I *really* started to look for fields. I could tell that I

 didn't want to try to stretch the glide, because this would put

 me...possibly...right over Bryan, Ohio, and that was not appealing at all

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

A valuable cautionary tale Lynn. Thanks. Why did you hesitate to tell it until now? Afterall, it wasn't "off-airport" even if that was your intent. 

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

  

 do not archive

  

 



--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 2:02 PM



 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



I've been keeping this little incident a secret up until now, but can't keep my mouth shut any longer. While this doesn't come under the heading of practice, it was a real world situation.



I needed 2 hours of flight a couple of weeks ago, so I could change my oil at my chosen time of 25 hours. I checked the fuel....8 gallons exactly...enough for a conservative 2 hour flight at my recent 3.0--3.8 gph. I took off and headed north, thinking of doing a half-hour in each of four directions, and being near home when the 2 hours were up. It was great flying weather, and it was mostly hands off flying. I kept checking my Northstar fuel flow gauge for remaining fuel and also checking the sight gauges in the wings...plenty of fuel according to  the sight gauges, and adequate, according to the Northstar gauge. Getting near the end of my time allotment, I saw B25, an airport  just into Indiana from the Michigan state line. I was curious about this airport, so I circled the field a couple of times trying to see if there was a building large enough for a B-25 plane, or if one was sitting outside. Seeing nothing along those lines, I figured I'd better head for home, and turned toward the northeast. I had flown in this direction for about 3 minutes, still looking outside and taking in the sights, when I caught sight of my low fuel warning light which was brightly lit. My clear vent line up to the right-hand fuel tank was empty, so I knew I was in deep do-do. I hit the NRST button on my GPS and saw Williams County (0G6) as the closest airport. This airport is just east of Bryan, Ohio, and 13 miles away from my (then) present location. The engine was still running, and I was at about 4,000 feet  MSL. I pointed it in that direction, and hoped for the best, all the while looking for a place to land. I had covered about 7 miles when the engine stopped. I had tried to position the plane to allow the fuel to get to the port, but also hoping to make the airport, which meant "quit screwing around with the fuel and streamline the plane for best glide". Now I *really* started to look for fields. I could tell that I didn't want to try to stretch the glide, because this would put me...possibly...right over Bryan, Ohio, and that was not appealing at all. I'd covered maybe another mile when I saw a long green stretch of land between all the brown fields of beans growing in the area. I said to my self that this was gonna become an airport in the next few minutes, and started to slip down toward it. The wind was from about 220° and this strip of green was running 9-27. I was north of it, and I didn't want to try landing into the wind because that would have  eaten up too much altitude. So here I was slipping it down to the west end of this "soon-to-become airport" at a pretty good clip, and finally had to straighten it out and put it down. When it finally touched down, I was going pretty damn fast, and got all over the brakes and it pulled to the right and headed for the beans. I got that straightened out and kept braking hard, with the nose of the plane getting too damn close to the ground...I'd never had the tail that high before on the ground, and I was pretty sure that I'd have to turn it into the beans to arrest the speed if I got much closer to the road which was coming up fast. Man, stuff was going by fast and the road was getting bigger, when it finally slowed enough to drop the tail. When I got out and looked around, I saw a plywood sign in the shape of an airplane, a wind sock, and a long building that looked like a series of hangars. I had landed at an real-life airport, complete with porta-potty  and way too-long (thank God ) grass. (I later found out that this is called "Al's Place", by the locals) There was nobody at this airport, but I made a call and a nice man from 0G6 came out with fuel....he knew exactly where I had landed. I'll quit the story there because that was the important part...the landing and getting the fuel so I could continue home.



All this is to point out that what Deke mentioned is true....it is ( in my opinion) excellent practice to do what he said, although try to do it when you already have the airport in sight, and try to do it into a headwind, not with a tailwind like I was forced to do. I also didn't have my goggles nor any hearing protection, which would have been nice to block out the screams coming from the cabin.



By the way, what got me messed up was relying on the sight gauges more than the Northstar gauge. The fuel splashes up into those sight gauges, giving a false sense of more fuel than is  actually there. And I had set the "GAS" reading on the Northstar to read 24 gallons when I had filled it the last time, not taking into account the unusable fuel. When I was circling over B25, I had the right wing up, and this was forcing the right tank to empty, and the left tank to unport. When I leveled off and headed for home, the right tank was empty, and the left tank was taking its own sweet time to re-supply the header tank with fuel, if indeed it had any to offer.



I've since then only entered 20 gallons into the Northstar under "GAS" after a fill-up, and only trust the sight gauges when the plane is rock steady.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Oct 19, 2009, at 9:56 AM,  fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   However, I still see no great risk why one couldn't practice a real world engine out by shutting down on downwind with a good long runway, have your tools ready, pull over off to the side and do a quick check.  Of course, it's best to announce intentions, wear goggles, hearing protection, inform fire department...   

=   --> http:========================
	




	


         [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Thanks, Pat.



Please, I urge everyone to read: ( http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/ 

182044-1.html )  which is the address for Pelican's Perch #7, in  

which John Deakin "takes aim at yet another OWT (Old Wive's Tale)" ,  

that of running a tank dry on purpose. He has some ideas that might  

change a pilots mind about the subject of fueling your plane.



By the way, after flying home, I folded the wings back and removed  

the finger strainers, thinking that maybe I had a flow problem  

(because I positioned the plane to feed the rear/only fuel outlets  

during the descent to the field), but there was absolutely NO  

obstruction to the finger strainers after 3-1/2 years of flying with  

100LL  with Kreeme APPLIED CORRECTLY, according to the instructions.  

I was very surprised that there wasn't ANYTHING on those strainers,  

and nothing anywhere else. Just to be sure, I changed all the hoses  

from the fuel tanks down to the header tank. I also changed the  

Purolator fuel filters after the same time period, and they were also  

clean, but I changed them anyway. I had already changed the lines  

from the header forward during the Rotec TBI installation 2 months  

ago. My fuel lines...SAE 30R7....were still flexible after those  

3-1/2 years.



Another "by the way"....at this very minute, I just turned 73...Happy  

Birthday to me, happy birthday to me.... : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Oct 19, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Thanks for the insite. I have made a habit in the C150 I am  

 taking lessons in to make a point of, not having "enough " gas for  

 the mission, but, having enough gas to return with a minimum of 10  

 gallons still on board. That was after another club member alerted  

 that I had left the plane with only 2 gals of gas in it. It has 3  

 galllons unuseable fuel!



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Another "by the way" comes from this incident....I covered 552  

statute miles, and flew for a total of 5.9 hours during the running  

dry of the fuel tanks. Earlier runs showed two consecutive trips that  

garnered 513 miles each, and one filling that got me 531 miles, but I  

will not try to beat this (552 miles) distance. Those earlier 513 and  

531-mile trips were not run dry, just longer-than-normal tank runs.  

In the 531-mile run, I used 19.7 gallons to fill after. I don't have  

a figure for the fuel used after this latest (552-mile) trip, because  

we added an unknown amount of fuel down there, and I drained the  

tanks when returning home, etc., so no good figures on amount used.  

An earlier low-fuel incident took 22.5 gallons (386 miles) to fill at  

some place called  Oshkosh...perhaps you've heard of it? : ) That  

flight was with the Bing carburetor. After I told the guy how much  

fuel it should take, and nearly hit it on the head, he said "You sure  

know your airplane"  ...maybe I know it a little TOO well. : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Oct 19, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Thanks for the insite. I have made a habit in the C150 I am  

 taking lessons in to make a point of, not having "enough " gas for  

 the mission, but, having enough gas to return with a minimum of 10  

 gallons still on board. That was after another club member alerted  

 that I had left the plane with only 2 gals of gas in it. It has 3  

 galllons unuseable fuel!



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

I dunno....just felt a bit stupid, I guess, Marco. Plus, I wasn't  

sure how much trouble I'd be in if I made it public. But a good  

lawyer (ugh!) would argue that I did such a good service by admitting  

it and letting others know, that instead of getting a penalty, I  

should be given a medal....geez, those guys are such....I don't know  

what, but they are!



I've always maintained, like aviation technical author John Deakin,  

that you should "Know thine airplane" and know how much fuel you need  

for the flight, and not just blindly pour fuel into it each and every  

time you land, because this is just wasteful in terms of carrying too  

much fuel most of the time "and not very professional." For a very  

good read on this subject, see "Pelican's Perch #7"   ( http:// 

www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182044-1.html ) He makes very good sense,  

and I encourage every pilot to read this article...you might come  

away with a new outlook on "filling her up" every time you land. I  

know people who just about wet their britches when they think about  

missing an opportunity to put fuel in the plane.



Since this happened, I've begun to think seriously about adding  

another fuel outlet at the front of the tanks, just to enable access  

to that "unusable fuel" when in a pitch-down attitude....I'm still  

mulling that one over.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Oct 19, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   A valuable cautionary tale Lynn. Thanks. Why did you hesitate to  

 tell it until now? Afterall, it wasn't "off-airport" even if that  

 was your intent. 



 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch



 do not archive



 --- On Mon, 10/19/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



 From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Subject: Re: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 2:02 PM



 



 I've been keeping this little incident a secret up until now, but  

 can't keep my mouth shut any longer. While this doesn't come under  

 the heading of practice, it was a real world situation.



 I needed 2 hours of flight a couple of weeks ago, so I could change  

 my oil at my chosen time of 25 hours. I checked the fuel....8  

 gallons exactly...enough for a conservative 2 hour flight at my  

 recent 3.0--3.8 gph. I took off and headed north, thinking of doing  

 a half-hour in each of four directions, and being near home when  

 the 2 hours were up. It was great flying weather, and it was mostly  

 hands off flying. I kept checking my Northstar fuel flow gauge for  

 remaining fuel and also checking the sight gauges in the  

 wings...plenty of fuel according to the sight gauges, and adequate,  

 according to the Northstar gauge. Getting near the end of my time  

 allotment, I saw B25, an airport  just into Indiana from the  

 Michigan state line. I was curious about this airport, so I circled  

 the field a couple of times trying to see if there was a building  

 large enough for a B-25 plane, or if one was sitting outside.  

 Seeing nothing along those lines, I figured I'd better head for  

 home, and turned toward the northeast. I had flown in this  

 direction for about 3 minutes, still looking outside and taking in  

 the sights, when I caught sight of my low fuel warning light which  

 was brightly lit. My clear vent line up to the right-hand fuel tank  

 was empty, so I knew I was in deep do-do. I hit the NRST button on  

 my GPS and saw Williams County (0G6) as the closest airport. This  

 airport is just east of Bryan, Ohio, and 13 miles away from my  

 (then) present location. The engine was still running, and I was at  

 about 4,000 feet MSL. I pointed it in that direction, and hoped for  

 the best, all the while looking for a place to land. I had covered  

 about 7 miles when the engine stopped. I had tried to position the  

 plane to allow the fuel to get to the port, but also hoping to make  

 the airport, which meant "quit screwing around with the fuel and  

 streamline the plane for best glide". Now I *really* started to  

 look for fields. I could tell that I didn't want to try to stretch  

 the glide, because this would put me...possibly...right over Bryan,  

 Ohio, and that was not appealing at all. I'd covered maybe another  

 mile when I saw a long green stretch of land between all the brown  

 fields of beans growing in the area. I said to my self that this  

 was gonna become an airport in the next few minutes, and started to  

 slip down toward it. The wind was from about 220° and this strip of  

 green was running 9-27. I was north of it, and I didn't want to try  

 landing into the wind because that would have eaten up too much  

 altitude. So here I was slipping it down to the west end of this  

 "soon-to-become airport" at a pretty good clip, and finally had to  

 straighten it out and put it down. When it finally touched down, I  

 was going pretty damn fast, and got all over the brakes and it  

 pulled to the right and headed for the beans. I got that  

 straightened out and kept braking hard, with the nose of the plane  

 getting too damn close to the ground...I'd never had the tail that  

 high before on the ground, and I was pretty sure that I'd have to  

 turn it into the beans to arrest the speed if I got much closer to  

 the road which was coming up fast. Man, stuff was going by fast and  

 the road was getting bigger, when it finally slowed enough to drop  

 the tail. When I got out and looked around, I saw a plywood sign in  

 the shape of an airplane, a wind sock, and a long building that  

 looked like a series of hangars. I had landed at an real-life  

 airport, complete with porta-potty and way too-long (thank God )  

 grass. (I later found out that this is called "Al's Place", by the  

 locals) There was nobody at this airport, but I made a call and a  

 nice man from 0G6 came out with fuel....he knew exactly where I had  

 landed. I'll quit the story there because that was the important  

 part...the landing and getting the fuel so I could continue home.



 All this is to point out that what Deke mentioned is true....it is  

 ( in my opinion) excellent practice to do what he said, although  

 try to do it when you already have the airport in sight, and try to  

 do it into a headwind, not with a tailwind like I was forced to do.  

 I also didn't have my goggles nor any hearing protection, which  

 would have been nice to block out the screams coming from the cabin.



 By the way, what got me messed up was relying on the sight gauges  

 more than the Northstar gauge. The fuel splashes up into those  

 sight gauges, giving a false sense of more fuel than is actually  

 there. And I had set the "GAS" reading on the Northstar to read 24  

 gallons when I had filled it the last time, not taking into account  

 the unusable fuel. When I was circling over B25, I had the right  

 wing up, and this was forcing the right tank to empty, and the left  

 tank to unport. When I leveled off and headed for home, the right  

 tank was empty, and the left tank was taking its own sweet time to  

 re-supply the header tank with fuel, if indeed it had any to offer.



 I've since then only entered 20 gallons into the Northstar under  

 "GAS" after a fill-up, and only trust the sight gauges when the  

 plane is rock steady.



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

 Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

 Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Rotec TBI-40 injection

 Status: flying (and learning)

 do not archive



 On Oct 19, 2009, at 9:56 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



 > However, I still see no great risk why one couldn't practice a  

 real world engine out by shutting down on downwind with a good long  

 runway, have your tools ready, pull over off to the side and do a  

 quick check.  Of course, it's best to announce intentions, wear  

 goggles, hearing protection, inform fire department...   

 =   --> http:========================



 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Great report, Lynn.  Its just this sort of information that gives us all 

pause for thought and many of us thinking that we've been in similar 

situations, but got lucky and were still able to get home or safely on the 

ground.  The big thing here is that you learned something from it and shared 

it with the rest of us.  There have been hundreds of List discussion posts 

in the past about what would happen if a fuel tank became unported and this 

is the first report I recall of actual fuel starvation because of it.  This 

confirms that one can actually run out of gas in our Kitfoxes while still 

having plenty left.  It also reminds us to not just rely on one source of 

information (sight gauges) when we have others for backup (fuel flow 

gauge/time).  Thanks for sharing, Lynn.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)



---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Hey, we all have those lapses. I have my header tank vented into the slipstream. On fueling, I open the vent to let out all the air, then before start-up, close the valve between the vent and header. At least that's what my checklist says I'm supposed to do. This was someone's suggestion a few years back as a way of preventing fuel starvation from header vapor-lock.

  

 Well, you can probably guess the rest. In any event, while the Northstar (I have a Navman) is a marvelous device, it's useless when the "wetware" fails. 

  

 P.S.: I don't think your "intent" alone can get you in legal trouble if you act alone (no conspiracy) and don't actually do anything unlawful. Oh, and did I ever tell you I am one of "those guys"? No charge for that. 



 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

 

--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, October 19, 2009, 11:22 PM



 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



I dunno....just felt a bit stupid, I guess, Marco. Plus, I wasn't sure how much trouble I'd be in if I made it public. But a good lawyer (ugh!) would argue that I did such a good service by admitting it and letting others know, that instead of getting a penalty, I should be given a medal....geez, those guys are such....I don't know what, but they are!



I've always maintained, like aviation technical author John Deakin, that you should "Know thine airplane" and know how much fuel you need for the flight, and not just blindly pour fuel into it each and every time you land, because this is just wasteful in terms of carrying too much fuel most of the time "and not very professional." For a very good read on this subject, see "Pelican's Perch  #7"   ( http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182044-1.html ) He makes very good sense, and I encourage every pilot to read this article...you might come away with a new outlook on "filling her up" every time you land. I know people who just about wet their britches when they think about missing an opportunity to put fuel in the plane.



Since this happened, I've begun to think seriously about adding another fuel outlet at the front of the tanks, just to enable access to that "unusable fuel" when in a pitch-down attitude....I'm still mulling that one over.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Oct 19,  2009, at 9:01 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   A valuable cautionary tale Lynn. Thanks. Why did you hesitate to tell it until now? Afterall, it wasn't "off-airport" even if that was your intent. 

 

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

 

 do not archive

 

 

 

 --- On Mon, 10/19/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:

 

 From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

 Subject: Re: Re: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)

 Date: Monday, October  19, 2009, 2:02 PM

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

 

 I've been keeping this little incident a secret up until now, but can't keep my mouth shut any longer. While this doesn't come under the heading of practice, it was a real world situation.

 

 I needed 2 hours of flight a couple of weeks ago, so I could change my oil at my chosen time of 25 hours. I checked the fuel....8 gallons exactly...enough for a conservative 2 hour flight at my recent 3.0--3.8 gph. I took off and headed north, thinking of doing a half-hour in each of four directions, and being near home when the 2 hours were up. It was great flying weather, and it was mostly hands off flying. I kept checking my Northstar fuel flow gauge for remaining fuel and also checking the sight gauges in the  wings...plenty of fuel according to the sight gauges, and adequate, according to the Northstar gauge. Getting near the end of my time allotment, I saw B25, an airport  just into Indiana from the Michigan state line. I was curious about this airport, so I circled the field a couple of times trying to see if there was a building large enough for a B-25 plane, or if one was sitting outside. Seeing nothing along those lines, I figured I'd better head for home, and turned toward the northeast. I had flown in this direction for about 3 minutes, still looking outside and taking in the sights, when I caught sight of my low fuel warning light which was brightly lit. My clear vent line up to the right-hand fuel tank was empty, so I knew I was in deep do-do. I hit the NRST button on my GPS and saw Williams County (0G6) as the closest airport. This airport is just east of Bryan, Ohio, and 13 miles away from my (then) present location. The engine was still  running, and I was at about 4,000 feet MSL. I pointed it in that direction, and hoped for the best, all the while looking for a place to land. I had covered about 7 miles when the engine stopped. I had tried to position the plane to allow the fuel to get to the port, but also hoping to make the airport, which meant "quit screwing around with the fuel and streamline the plane for best glide". Now I *really* started to look for fields. I could tell that I didn't want to try to stretch the glide, because this would put me..possibly...right over Bryan, Ohio, and that was not appealing at all. I'd covered maybe another mile when I saw a long green stretch of land between all the brown fields of beans growing in the area. I said to my self that this was gonna become an airport in the next few minutes, and started to slip down toward it. The wind was from about 220° and this strip of green was running 9-27. I was north of it, and I didn't want to try landing  into the wind because that would have eaten up too much altitude. So here I was slipping it down to the west end of this "soon-to-become airport" at a pretty good clip, and finally had to straighten it out and put it down. When it finally touched down, I was going pretty damn fast, and got all over the brakes and it pulled to the right and headed for the beans. I got that straightened out and kept braking hard, with the nose of the plane getting too damn close to the ground...I'd never had the tail that high before on the ground, and I was pretty sure that I'd have to turn it into the beans to arrest the speed if I got much closer to the road which was coming up fast. Man, stuff was going by fast and the road was getting bigger, when it finally slowed enough to drop the tail. When I got out and looked around, I saw a plywood sign in the shape of an airplane, a wind sock, and a long building that looked like a series of hangars. I had landed at an  real-life airport, complete with porta-potty and way too-long (thank God ) grass. (I later found out that this is called "Al's Place", by the locals) There was nobody at this airport, but I made a call and a nice man from 0G6 came out with fuel....he knew exactly where I had landed. I'll quit the story there because that was the important part...the landing and getting the fuel so I could continue home.

 

 All this is to point out that what Deke mentioned is true....it is ( in my opinion) excellent practice to do what he said, although try to do it when you already have the airport in sight, and try to do it into a headwind, not with a tailwind like I was forced to do. I also didn't have my goggles nor any hearing protection, which would have been nice to block out the screams coming from the cabin.

 

 By the way, what got me messed up was relying on the sight gauges more than the Northstar gauge. The fuel splashes up into  those sight gauges, giving a false sense of more fuel than is actually there. And I had set the "GAS" reading on the Northstar to read 24 gallons when I had filled it the last time, not taking into account the unusable fuel. When I was circling over B25, I had the right wing up, and this was forcing the right tank to empty, and the left tank to unport. When I leveled off and headed for home, the right tank was empty, and the left tank was taking its own sweet time to re-supply the header tank with fuel, if indeed it had any to offer.

 

 I've since then only entered 20 gallons into the Northstar under "GAS" after a fill-up, and only trust the sight gauges when the plane is rock steady.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

 Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

 Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 Rotec TBI-40  injection

 Status: flying (and learning)

 do not archive

 

 

 

 

 

 On Oct 19, 2009, at 9:56 AM, fox5flyer wrote:

 

 > However, I still see no great risk why one couldn't practice a real world engine out by shutting down on downwind with a good long runway, have your tools ready, pull over off to the side and do a quick check.  Of course, it's best to announce intentions, wear goggles, hearing protection, inform fire department...   

 =   --> http:========================

 

 

 ========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List   --> http://www.matronics.com==================


	




	


         [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:45 am Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

At 08:22 PM 10/19/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Since this happened, I've begun to think seriously about adding

another fuel outlet at the front of the tanks, just to enable access

to that "unusable fuel" when in a pitch-down attitude....I'm still

mulling that one over.


	


The problem with the front outlet is that you have to run it down the 

forward door post. It's ugly and makes your life difficult when you 

want to fold. Easier to just consider one or two gallons unusable, 

just like you do in any vehicle.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

My condolences, Marco, on your choice of profession. : )

You just watch....as soon as I need one of "your type" you'll all be  

the nicest bunch of guys I've ever run into. : )

Thanks for the consultation, Marco. By the way, ever since I retired  

from the University of California, in fact even before I retired,  

I've paid into the Legal Plan every month. I figured that as long as  

I keep paying, I'll never need their services....but that was before  

I learned(?) to fly.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Oct 20, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Marco Menezes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hey, we all have those lapses. I have my header tank vented into  

 the slipstream. On fueling, I open the vent to let out all the air,  

 then before start-up, close the valve between the vent and header.  

 At least that's what my checklist says I'm supposed to do. This was  

 someone's suggestion a few years back as a way of preventing fuel  

 starvation from header vapor-lock.



 Well, you can probably guess the rest. In any event, while the  

 Northstar (I have a Navman) is a marvelous device, it's useless  

 when the "wetware" fails.



 P.S.: I don't think your "intent" alone can get you in legal  

 trouble if you act alone (no conspiracy) and don't actually do  

 anything unlawful. Oh, and did I ever tell you I am one of "those  

 guys"? No charge for that. 

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: jetting a 582 and a choped elbow

Thanks for the insight, Guy. Yeah, I know it would be visible running  

down the front post. I may just hang a short hose along that post and  

live with looking at it for a while and see how much it bothers me  

seeing it there. But like you said, it's easier to educate the pilot  

(well, MOST pilots) than it is to change the plane.

Speaking of vehicles, I used to have two tanks in an old Toyota motor  

home, and I would run the first tank until it ran out and quickly  

switch to the other when it started to stumble. I gotta  remember I  

ain't just cruisin' along the freeway nowadays. : )

Actually, I don't fold the wings hardly ever, and I was thinking of  

using a smooth fitting with a bulb-end at the front of the tank. They  

come apart pretty easy....still thinking about it....

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 800.0 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs--200 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

On Oct 20, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 08:22 PM 10/19/2009, you wrote:

> Since this happened, I've begun to think seriously about adding

> another fuel outlet at the front of the tanks, just to enable access

> to that "unusable fuel" when in a pitch-down attitude....I'm still

> mulling that one over.

 The problem with the front outlet is that you have to run it down  

 the forward door post. It's ugly and makes your life difficult when  

 you want to fold. Easier to just consider one or two gallons  

 unusable, just like you do in any vehicle.

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum