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ELT Antenna

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robert.rasmussen(at)navy.
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

Greetings All,

Two questions:

1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 tail fairing, per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html instructions?  



2. What is EMACS!



Thanks,

Raz

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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions.       The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.

       

       Ed Holyoke

     

     On 3/20/2012 2:35 PM, Rasmussen, Robert CAPT USFF, N3 OTRC wrote:     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings All,

Two questions:

1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 tail fairing, per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html instructions?  



2. What is EMACS!



Thanks,

Raz

	
     [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

At 04:35 PM 3/20/2012, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings All,

Two questions:

1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 

tail fairing, per 

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html 

instructions?


	


    Functionally, yes . . . as long as it's a VHF only

    ELT. If it's a dual band device, the antenna has special

    features to offer performance on both frequencies.



    As Ed mentioned, you might have some bureaucratic

    briar patches to negotiate too.



 	  Quote: 	
		  2. What is EMACS!


	


   It's a placeholder that my email client inserts for

   embedded figures. Your e-mail client may object to

   displaying the figure and displays the placeholder.



   You can get the 'complete' posting my going to

   the http://matronics.com/forums and viewing the

   thread there. The figures can be downloaded too

   and placed on your own computer as you see useful

   or necessary.



   It's a bit of a quandary . . . it's useful to

   illustrate a posting with embedded images so that

   they are displayed in place with the descriptive

   text . . . as opposed to making them attachments

   or linking to an uploaded image on the website.

   But some email clients don't handle my embedded

   images well. What e-mail client are you using?



   Bob . . .

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

THE INSTRUCTIONS CALL FOR A 22"LENGTH AND THAT IS GOOD FOR THE OLD 121MhZ

ELT.   The new ETL operate close to 400 mHz therefore should have a length

just over 7".  I'm sure Bob can give us the practical length.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:59 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke

Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

 

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.



Ed Holyoke



On 3/20/2012 2:35 PM, Rasmussen, Robert CAPT USFF, N3 OTRC wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings All,Two questions:1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 tail fairing, per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html instructions?   2. What is EMACS! Thanks,Raz <=======================[/b]Two questions: 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  Two questions: 	
1

  [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO. 

Noel wrote:

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna. 

 

Noel

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke

 Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

  Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.

  [quote][b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: ELT Antenna



 

The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.

 

Noel wrote:

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke

Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

 

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna. 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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  [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:39 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

Who installs it has nothing to do whether it complies. It simply must be 

installed in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, which 

ensure TSO compliance. In theory the DAR inspecting the aircraft should 

check that, but are not likely to look too closely. The person doing the 

condition inspection annually must also ensure compliance with the test 

requirements in Part 91.



On 3/22/2012 11:09 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must 

 be installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)



 Noel



 *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 

 *Kelly McMullen

 *Sent:* March 21, 2012 8:26 PM

 *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: ELT Antenna



 The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system 

 meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna 

 of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on 

 OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.



 Noel wrote:



 It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use 

 your own antenna.



 Noel



 *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 <mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> 

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 <mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of 

 *Ed Holyoke

 *Sent:* March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

 *To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

 <mailto:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

 *Subject:* Re: ELT Antenna



 Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed 

 and might require that you use their antenna.



 *  *

 *  *

 **

 **

 **

 **

 **

 *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List*

 **

 **

 *http://forums.matronics.com*

 **

 **

 **

 *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*

 **

 *  *

 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

I just had mine inspected by the FAA for A/W cert. and the issue never came up at all and I do have a non TSO 'd antenna on the transponder. FWIW, I think that's about the norm . I know of several others with the same experience. 

Tim



Sent from my iPad



On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:09 AM, "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:



[quote]  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: ELT Antenna



 

The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.

 

Noel wrote:

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke

Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

 

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna. 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6

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7

[b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

In this  country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain

exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft

maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the

airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the

appliance.

One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot

borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done.  In the

past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft

so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90

days.

In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT

it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.

Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have

to carry an ELT.  Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this

land without one.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

Good Evening Noel,

  

 What country are you discussing?

  

  

 In the USA, every airline pilot regularly flies without an ELT.   

  

 Personally, I would be happy to do so if it were not an FAA requirement. I  do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT.

  

 There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance.  I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or  herself.

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 3/22/2012 8:36:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys"    <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



In this  country any appliance on a    certified aircraft with certain

exceptions has to be installed by or    checked by a certified AME ( aircraft

maintenance engineer ) and the    installation has to be documented in the

airframe log book and noted if    there is a separate log book for the

appliance.

One of the things I do    not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot

borrow another ELT while    one is out having scheduled service done.  In the

past the AMO I    worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft

so they    wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90

days.

In    fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an    ELT

it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics    shop.

Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They    don't even have

to carry an ELT.  Mind I don't know anyone who is    stupid enough to fly this

land without  one.



Noel



	


 [quote][b]

kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:47 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

Old Bob says:

  

 <<  Noel, .. What country are you  discussing? >>

  

 His email address is Canada.  His description  fits what little I know of Canada's regulatory environment.

  

 <<  I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced  to install the ELT.  >>

  

 This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience.  In  Alaska in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation  rate (especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly  due to poor antenna placement) was depressing.  Still ELTs managed to save  lives, including mine.  The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much  more effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.

  

 <<  There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you  need assistance.  >>

  

 Disagree.  My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human  habitation.  My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec.  In the  meantime, I was a little busy to let anyone know anything.  Although I was  flying with two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to  Search & Rescue.  Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let  them know there were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate  location.  Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error.   But when they got in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our  location.  The moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance  and help Search & Rescue determine our location.

  

 <<  I think each pilot should be able to make that decision  himself or herself.  >>

  

 Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation  safety statement of fact.  But given human nature, mandates are not  always bad.  Sort of like forced automobile liability insurance.

  

 Tom Kuffel

   [quote][b]

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

3/23/2012



Hello Noel Loveys, Thank you for your inputs on this subject, but in the 

interest of stamping out hearsay, gossip, and rumors regarding experimental 

amateur built aircraft I'd like to point out that some of your comments are 

just not applicable in the USA.



The following statements that you wrote are not correct in the USA:



1) "In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be

installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)"



2) "One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft 

cannot

borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done."



3) "...so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 

90

days."



Note that the regulatory requirements for having an ELT in a US registered 

civil aircraft operating in the US, and the circumstances permitted for 

flying without an ELT installed, are contained in 14 CFR 91.207. That 

section is too long and complicated to be copied, or even extracted in this 

posting. It may be accessed here:



http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=e13e8f64d66f124a79dbd562cbe93f0b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.4&idno=14



4) "In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an 

ELT

it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics 

shop."



5) "Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even 

have

to carry an ELT."



They do in the USA in accordance with 14 CFR 91.207.



Thanks for your help in posting accuracy.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."



==============================================================

Time: 11:11:14 AM PST US

From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna



In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be

installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

Noel



From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly

McMullen

Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna

The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets

the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown

impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that

must comply with the TSO.

Noel wrote:



It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your

own antenna.

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed

Holyoke

Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and

might require that you use their antenna.



==========================================================



Time: 06:36:13 PM PST US

From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna

In this  country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain

exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft

maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the

airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the

appliance.

One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot

borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done.  In the

past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft

so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90

days.

In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT

it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.

Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have

to carry an ELT.  Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this

land without one.



Noel

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:49 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Good Morning Tom, 

  

 I not only know very little about Canada, but also do not know much about  figuring out from where a message is sent. I carefully worded my answer to make  it clear that I did not know.

  

 Glad that it worked for you, but we could make similar statements  about the advisability of having two engines and/or two pilots. 

  

 I do NOT feel that regulations should force me to do things which I do not  wish to do.  

  

 That is political!

  

 I fly almost entirely within the Contiguous Forty Eight. 

  

 Long before the ELT was forced upon us, I made a practice of carrying a  portable radio with which I could ask for help if needed. (An early Bayside was  my choice at the time.) I continue to carry a portable radio and I always carry  IFR charts so I can be sure of getting on a frequency that is being heavily  monitored in the area over which I am flying. Since 911, we are required to  monitor guard if possible, but that has not always been so. The ELT has a  terrible record. An accurate flight plan posted with a friend or the FAA has  shown to have much a better success rate. 

  

 I think my way is better, but it should be my choice!

  

 I would suggest carrying a nice new PLB. (I actually carry one in my flight  bag, but that is beside the point.) The big thing is that it should be my  decision, not the decision of a bureaucrat in Washington and that IS  Political!

  

 The airliners do not carry an ELT. Why should I?

  

 Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob

  

  In a message dated 3/22/2012 11:48:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  kuffel(at)cyberport.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Old Bob says:

    

   <<  Noel, .. What country are you    discussing? >>

    

   His email address is Canada.  His    description fits what little I know of Canada's regulatory environment.

    

   <<  I do not feel one whit more secure since we were    forced to install the ELT.  >>

    

   This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience.  In    Alaska in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation    rate (especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate    (mostly due to poor antenna placement) was depressing.  Still ELTs    managed to save lives, including mine.  The newer GPS augmented 406    MHz system is much more effective, quickly providing a location measured in    meters.

    

   <<  There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you    need assistance.  >>

    

   Disagree.  My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human    habitation.  My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec.  In the    meantime, I was a little busy to let anyone know anything.  Although I    was flying with two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate    location to Search & Rescue.  Our cell phone got through to 911 long    enough to let them know there were survivors but not long enough to provide    our accurate location.  Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in    error.  But when they got in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little    in narrowing our location.  The moral, I want as many ways as possible to    ask for assistance and help Search & Rescue determine our location.

    

   <<  I think each pilot should be able to make that decision    himself or herself.  >>

    

   Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation    safety statement of fact.  But given human nature, mandates are not    always bad.  Sort of like forced automobile liability insurance.

    

   Tom Kuffel

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


 [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:58 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

We here north of the 49th must have an ELT on every certified aircraft as part of the MEL (minimum equipment list) ELTs are allowed to be removed for normal scheduled maintenance or whenever the unit does not pass inspection.  The units may be removed for repair that usually means replacement of the batteries (C size on the old ELTs) for a period not to exceed 90 days.  

Even though our countries are close in many ways one major difference is the fact we have enormous tracts of totally desolate land and flying over that kind of territory without some kind of back up is totally crazy.  As I said the one part, aside of huge cost,  I don’t like about the 406mHz Elts is the fact they are all digitally assigned to a specific aircraft and there is no vehicle in place that allows the owner to swap one out.  It is also illegal to install one into an aircraft that it is not assigned to.  In my mind the should have a loaned code available that AMOs, FBOs and the like can put in aircraft while service is being done on the original ELT.

 

Years ago a bizjet went off the end of the runway at Churchill Falls, Labrador, in a snowstorm.  For some reason the local tower thought the plane had overshot and gone on to an alternate airport but because of the terrain decided to start a search immediately.  Within hours it became apparent they did the right thing because a check with other airports in range of the plane turned up negative.  They searched the area for two weeks by helicopter and snowmobile. No results.  Six months later a landing plane noticed a glint on the glide path and reporte4d it to the tower.  They had found the jet.  The passengers all froze to death.  The ELT of that plane had been legally removed for scheduled maintenance.  Had it been there all the passengers and crew would have been saved.  While it is true that today we have all sorts of GPS and digital phones sometimes it is still better to have the tried and true systems as a backup.  While I agree that today there are more modes of following aircraft it does give some comfort to have the ELT as a backup.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com

Sent: March 23, 2012 1:05 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

 

Good Evening Noel,



 



What country are you discussing?



 



 



In the USA, every airline pilot regularly flies without an ELT.  



 



Personally, I would be happy to do so if it were not an FAA requirement. I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT.



 



There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself.



 



Happy Skies,



 



Old Bob



 



In a message dated 3/22/2012 8:36:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca) writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>



In this  country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain

exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft

maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the

airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the

appliance.

One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot

borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done.  In the

past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft

so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90

days.

In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT

it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.

Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have

to carry an ELT.  Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this

land without one.



Noel  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Here in Newfoundland we have forced liability insurance too.  The one law I don’t agree with is the seatbelt law and I onluy disagree with that one for open cars that do not have roll bars.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of The Kuffels

Sent: March 23, 2012 2:15 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

 

Old Bob says:



 



<<  Noel, .. What country are you discussing? >>



 



His email address is Canada.  His description fits what little I know of Canada's regulatory environment.



 



<<  I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT.  >>



 



This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience.  In Alaska in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation rate (especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly due to poor antenna placement) was depressing.  Still ELTs managed to save lives, including mine.  The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much more effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.



 



<<  There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance.  >>



 



Disagree.  My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human habitation.  My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec.  In the meantime, I was a little busy to let anyone know anything.  Although I was flying with two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to Search & Rescue.  Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let them know there were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate location.  Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error.  But when they got in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our location.  The moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance and help Search & Rescue determine our location.



 



<<  I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself.  >>



 



Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation safety statement of fact.  But given human nature, mandates are not always bad.  Sort of like forced automobile liability insurance.



 



Tom Kuffel

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: ELT Antenna

3/23/2012



Hello Noel, Thank you for your most courteous reply. You wrote: "New 406 

mHz. ELTs are identified to specific aircraft in specific configuration."



This is a very important point that you make. Each of those ELT's is also 

identified to a specific Owner/Operator of that specific aircraft and to a 

specific Primary and Alternate 24-Hour Emergency Contact associated with 

that specific ELT and aircraft along with communication information for all 

of those individuals. See here:



http://www.nmea.org/Assets/elt%20406%20registration%20and%20renewal.pdf



The purpose of that contact information is to permit rapid communication 

with one of those individuals should an emergency signal be received by a 

satellite to confirm that the signal is not a false alarm.



Also note that it is possible on that form to submit a Change of ELT 

Information or Ownership and to do it fairly quickly online at:



www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov



This would permit a fairly flexible and timely means of swapping a 406 Mhz 

ELT from one aircraft to another if that became a need and one complied with 

all provisions of the registration requirements.



'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to 

gather and understand knowledge."



====================================================

From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

To: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:35 PM

Subject: RE: ELT Antenna

 	  Quote: 	
		   My apologies sometimes I forget that most people on the lists are not

 Canadian and there are several differences in our aviation procedures.



 In Canada an aircraft flown commercially must have an ELT on board. 

 However

 I'm not sure it has to be turned on.  An ELT may be removed for servicing

 for up to 90 days.



 New 406 mHz. ELTs are identified to specific aircraft in specific

 configuration.  One of the new ELT cannot be taken out of one aircraft and

 put in another.  The identifier code on the ELT is "Married "to a specific

 airplane.  My understanding is if a large plane is converted from 

 passenger

 to cargo it must be refitted with a new ELT as there is no vehicle to do

 this.



 I do like to keep up with what is going on south of the 49th so I will 

 have

 a look through your link and at the same time I'll have another look 

 through

 CARs, Canada's equivalent to FARs.



 Thank you.



 Noel

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: ELT Antenna

Two points for clarification. ELT's, per 91.207, are required in airPLANES, not in airCRAFT. That's why my E-LSA airplane has one but my E-LSA Weight Shift Control aircraft (i.e. Trike) does not." (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil airplane unless— "

 Exempted per 91.207 f (9) " Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person".

And yes, I see how the waters are muddied by the use of airplane in the "Thou shalt" section of the rule, and aircraft in the "Thou may not" in the list of exemptions.

 Thank goodness my DAR understood the rule.

Rick Girard

 

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 7:36 AM,  <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

 

 3/23/2012

 

 Hello Noel Loveys, Thank you for your inputs on this subject, but in the interest of stamping out hearsay, gossip, and rumors regarding experimental amateur built aircraft I'd like to point out that some of your comments are just not applicable in the USA.

  

 The following statements that you wrote are not correct in the USA:

 

 1) "In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be

 installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)"

 

 2) "One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot

 borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done."

 

 3) "...so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90

 days."

 

 Note that the regulatory requirements for having an ELT in a US registered civil aircraft operating in the US, and the circumstances permitted for flying without an ELT installed, are contained in 14 CFR 91.207. That section is too long and complicated to be copied, or even extracted in this posting. It may be accessed here:

  

 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=e13e8f64d66f124a79dbd562cbe93f0b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.4&idno=14

  

 4) "In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT

 it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop."

 

 5) "Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have

 to carry an ELT."

 

 They do in the USA in accordance with 14 CFR 91.207.

 

 Thanks for your help in posting accuracy.

 

 'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

 

 =====================================

 

 

 Time: 11:11:14 AM PST US

 From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

 Subject: RE: ELT Antenna

 

 In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be

 installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

 

 

 Noel

 

 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly

 McMullen

 Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM

 Subject: RE: ELT Antenna

 

 

 The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets

 the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown

 impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that

 must comply with the TSO.

 

 

 Noel wrote:

 

 It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your

 own antenna.

 

 

 Noel

 

 

 From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)

 [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed

 Holyoke

 Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM

 Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

 

 

 Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and

 might require that you use their antenna.

 

 =================================

 

 Time: 06:36:13 PM PST US

 From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

 Subject: RE: ELT Antenna

 

 

 In this  country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain

 exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft

 maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the

 airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the

 appliance.

 One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot

 borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done.  In the

 past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft

 so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90

 days.

 In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT

 it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.

 Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have

 to carry an ELT.  Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this

 land without one.

 

 Noel

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 



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