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Ethanol?
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f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

What are you folks doing with the two strokes where no unblended fuel is available? Are you burning it anyway?

Frank Miles
K-III w/ 582

Checked by AVG.
5/25/2008 6:49 PM
[quote][b]


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Mnflyer



Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Hi Frank, here in MN the boating, snowmobile and classic car groups lobbied and got Premium (91 oct.) exempted from ethanol, you might check with petroleum distributors in your area there many be non ethanol fuel availble.
Good luck.


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f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

No such luck here. Oregon, Washington, Idaho, all of the fuels are now laced
with ethanol. I was under the impression that Washington was to make some
fuel available without but if it is, no one wants to carry it! If anyone is
burning ethanol, what has been your experience?

Frank
K-III W/582

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Donroutledge(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Have you all read anything on Swift Enterprises? They have developed an avgas that replaces 100ll at half the price. I don't know how to put their link on here so just Google Swift enterprises and check it out. There was an interview on AvWeb today that was pretty impressive. Don

In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:09:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net writes:
Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>

No such luck here. Oregon, Washington, Idaho, all of the fuels are now laced
with ethanol. I was under the impression that Washington was to make some
fuel available without but if it is, no one wants to carry it! If anyone is
burning ethanol, what has been your experience?

Frank
K-III W/582

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:19 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Ethanol?

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mnflyer" <gbsb2002(at)yahoo.com>

Hi Frank, here in MN the boating, snowmobile and classic car groups lobbied
and got Premium (91 oct.) exempted from ethanol, you might check with
petroleum distributors in your area there many be non ethanol fuel availble.
Good luck.

--------
GB
MNFlyer


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Eggstaf(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

We have one place that has ethanol free gas here in Hawaii but it's only 89 octane. I haven't tried it in my Rotax but my classic cars and street rods make it home now without quitting. I did had a low fuel sensor melt because of ethanol. Fortunately my Vixen was on the ground when it went or all my fuel would have been in the belly! Beware!!!

Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
[quote][b]


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Quote:
What are you folks doing with the two strokes where no unblended fuel is available? Are you burning it anyway?

Frank Miles
K-III w/ 582


Frank, First off I am not an ethanol supporter. That being said I personally burn over 1000 gallons annually in my 582 alone in my Kitfox. Plus many other planes and 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines and I use ethanol gas. In Canada we have been mandated to get ethanol in all gas except a few brands of Premium gas.
There is no use in spending more money on premium that I have found. I have used gas 6 months old or older in my Kitfox with no issues. I have used ethanol gas with NO issues. I keep hearing about all these nasty things with ethanol gas like crabs corroding, engines screwing up and fiberglass tanks melting . I have has NO ISSUES with any of this SO FAR.
I fly usually under 5000 ASL and occasionaly to 10,000 asl an NO ISSUES.

If anyone has had negative effects of ethanol gas please speak up. Once again I am not an Ethanol gas but I have had no issues with it yet.
If my tanks start to leak from ethanol or any other way I will definaly buy some neww ones here http://wingtanks.com/. They Look like they are perfect. I was thinking of adding a pair of them to increase capacity but I think I will wait till winter or a wing revcovery.


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:35 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Far from Ethanol. Far from gas. Very clean though. This is the fuel James Bond’s jet pack runs on.

Noel

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Donroutledge(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:00 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Ethanol?



Have you all read anything on Swift Enterprises? They have developed an avgas that replaces 100ll at half the price. I don't know how to put their link on here so just Google Swift enterprises and check it out. There was an interview on AvWeb today that was pretty impressive. Don



In a message dated 5/29/2008 7:09:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net writes:


[quote][b]


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Guy Buchanan



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

At 02:04 AM 5/30/2008, you wrote:
Quote:
If anyone has had negative effects of ethanol gas please speak up.

Last week I met an ultralight pilot who, in the last year,
had the liner of his fiberglass tank melt which cause sufficient
2-stroke engine interior coating to cause the engine to seize. (His
words.) The tank liner was a rubbery substance I have not seen
before. The pilot attributed the tank liner meltdown to alcohol in
the fuel, but had done no rigorous testing. He since switched to a
polyethylene tank and has had not further problems. It's all
anecdotal, none of it's proven, but you asked. . .
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.


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dave



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Quote:
Last week I met an ultralight pilot who, in the last year,
had the liner of his fiberglass tank melt which cause sufficient
2-stroke engine interior coating to cause the engine to seize. (His
words.) The tank liner was a rubbery substance I have not seen
before. The pilot attributed the tank liner meltdown to alcohol in
the fuel, but had done no rigorous testing. He since switched to a
polyethylene tank and has had not further problems. It's all
anecdotal, none of it's proven, but you asked. . .
Guy Buchanan


Guy, thanks for thats info. Likely candidate the "sloshing " perhaps ?

I have no sloshing in mine .

Great to hear real life stories. thanks


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

My tanks are from different time periods, the right one from 95, the left one from about 3 years ago. Now before I get to far into this, my aircraft has flown on alki for quit some time now. I fly every day 360 a year, with exceptions of bad weather. So that means winter gas has the alki for me. I'm in Washington state so now it means alki year round.

Anyway, my right tank inside has the white coating in the tank, there hasn't been any trouble at all, now let me add that when I fill my tanks, with an offroad tank. The hose has rubbed off the white stuff in spots, still the tank is holding up. The left tank, has no coating inside, straight from skystar, was told at the time I didn't need to do anything with the tank, just install. I put auto fuel injection line in place of all rubber hoses. I check my tanks all the time, and once in a while I will get a couple spots of water, but other than that none. I also pull the carb bowls on every oil change, again all is well, no water.

right now the only objection I have is a slightly higher burn rate and a bunch of muck under the aircraft from the exhaust.

Engine 912 ul 80


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Quote:
right now the only objection I have is a slightly higher burn rate and a bunch of muck under the aircraft from the exhaust

Yup less power from ethanol Mike. you need more throttle for same power and speed. how much? I not sure but I would guess it would be about the same as the % age of ethanol
eg. 10& ethanol might use 10% more fuel.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Hi Dave:

Just to add a word in here.

Our engines don't require high octane fuel but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. While I dispute as to whether or not the ethanol itself is clean fuel one thing is for sure the occasional tank of ethanol laced fuel will clean the scuppers out of your engine (muck on the bottom) and reduce the need for decarbonising. All that with probably slightly lower EGTs. Also because the ethanol has an RON of 116 and your engine will probably run smoother, I would expect that in a way, would help increase the power you get out of it. I’d expect maybe a 5% reduction in power (at) WOT if that much. That is however not without cost. Your fuel consumption will be anywhere from 7 – 10% higher so plan on that for those long trips.

Noel

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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:10 am    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Quote:
Our engines don't require high octane fuel but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.


Rotax 447/503/532/582 912 UL can run fine on reg gas assuming it not over a few months old. gas will lose a bit of octane over time as well if you pre mix it it can lose a bit more. These are NOT high compression or high performance engines the way we are set up to run them. My current 582 in my Kitfox has over 460 hours on it in last 23 months running 98% reg gas a few time av gas,marine gas(who know what is was) Engine has Never been apart. Changed plugs 3 times now. Just put in 4th set a few weeks ago. Working well but my disclaimer is that it is on borrowed time and could fly apart at anytime even as soon as my next flight.


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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:36 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Dave:

I have no doubt you are intentionally pushing the envelope a bit. I also have no doubt that you wouldn’t try a take off if you weren’t sure you’d clear the trees. I’ve seen certified engines that have gone as long as 4000 hr “On condition” and were still running strong. They wouldn’t be allowed in trainers or commercial planes but for the guy who zipped out early in the morning to get breakfast at the “secret gullies” it was perfect.

Noel

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Dave

I used to have a Challenger with an aluminum tank and before I found out that ethanol/methanol wasn't suitable for the engine I added methanol to every tank during winter (same as I did for my Snow machine!). Ignorance can be bliss?

The thing is I never had a problem (nor icing) in over 450 hrs which included one complete re-build at 350 hrs (engine was found to be in great condition with no piston slap and crank wear almost undetectable.)

That being said, methanol is a great solvent for epoxy resin and I'm sure would have similar effects on polyester resin over a period of time - I think the real danger is in Tank damage and the resultant dissolved resin and glass fibers that would end up in the gas.

I think that careful monitoring of the tanks and filters would make sense if using high alcohol content gas.

Re High Octane Auto gas - you are right about that also - unfortunately with the low octane gas (87 - 89) the restrictions on accuracy of octane are pretty open to interpretation and when you go into high test, the governing bodies ensure that the octane levels are accurate.

Gary

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Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Hi all,
This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall I have
used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 gals of 92oct
premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with no
noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal. The
airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty brown slurry
when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I took the
fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my fingers,
sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will refill with
100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of resin? My
tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.

Looks like Avgas for me.
Kevin C
Series 6-7
Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL
Czech floats
Laingsburg MI


Quote:




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

What brand of fuel was it? Clint

[quote] From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0400

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: K&MCozik <kcozik(at)cablespeed.com>


Hi all,
This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall I have
used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 gals of 92oct
premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with no
noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal. The
airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty brown slurry
when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I took the
fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my fingers,
sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will refill with
100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of resin? My
tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.

Looks like Avgas for me.
Kevin C
Series 6-7
Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL
Czech floats
Laingsburg MI




>
&g============



Quote:
[b]


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Clint,
It was supplied by a company called Scotland oil company. They supply gas to
BP/Amoco, Marathon and a few local independents which is were I bought my supply.
Kevin C
Rotax 914
Series 6-7
Czech floats
Laingsburg Michigan

On Mon Jun 2 11:30 , Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com> sent:

Quote:



What brand of fuel was it?  Clint

> From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?
> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0400
>
>
>
>
> Hi all,
> This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall
I have

Quote:
> used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10
gals of 92oct

Quote:
> premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with
no

Quote:
> noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal.
The

Quote:
> airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty
brown slurry

Quote:
> when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I
took the

Quote:
> fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my
fingers,

Quote:
> sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will
refill with

Quote:
> 100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of
resin? My

Quote:
> tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.
>
> Looks like Avgas for me.
> Kevin C
> Series 6-7
> Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL
> Czech floats
> Laingsburg MI
>
>
>
>
> >
> &g============
>
>
>


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Ethanol? Reply with quote

That is very interesting. I use auto fuel all the time in my 912ULS.  I only use Hi Test Chevron. Am careful at not using anything else except 100 LL.. Do you know if it was the tank or reaction to fuel line or ?? clint

Quote:
From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:00:50 -0400

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: K&MCozik <kcozik(at)cablespeed.com>


Clint,
It was supplied by a company called Scotland oil company. They supply gas to
BP/Amoco, Marathon and a few local independents which is were I bought my supply.
Kevin C
Rotax 914
Series 6-7
Czech floats
Laingsburg Michigan

On Mon Jun 2 11:30 , Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com> sent:

>
>
>
>
>
>What brand of fuel was it? Clint
>
>> From: kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
>> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol?
>> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:15:35 -0400
>>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: K&MCozik <kcozik(at)cablespeed.com>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>> This is perfect timing for this issue. Since I began flying my kitfox last fall
I have
>> used nothing but 100LL w/TCP. About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10
gals of 92oct
>> premium auto fuel from the local station. I flew the airplane about 45 mins with
no
>> noticable diffrence except the temps seemed to be slightly higher than normal.
The
>> airplane sat on my beach since then and when I preflighted today I got a nasty
brown slurry
>> when I sumped the tanks. It wasn't trace amounts, it was a couple ounces. When I
took the
>> fuel off the top I dipped my finger in the brown fluid and rubbed it between my
fingers,
>> sure enough it was sticky....resin? I think so. I drained my tanks and will
refill with
>> 100LL tomorrow. I'm not sure how other guys are using auto fuel with no sign of
resin? My
>> tanks are from late 2000 with no coating.
>>
>> Looks like Avgas for me.
>> Kevin C
>> Series 6-7
>> Rotax 914 turbo w/100LL
>> Czech floats
>> Laingsburg MI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> &g============
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
&==============

Quote:





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Tom Jones



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Ethanol? Reply with quote

Quote:
About 5 days ago my tanks were low so I put 10 gals of 92oct
premium auto fuel from the local station.


Kevin, if you still have that 92 oct fuel on hand could you test it for alcohol and let us know for sure if it does contain it?

I have been using 92 oct auto fuel for the past year and have had no problems. My wing tank is from 1994 and has the white kreme sloshing inside. I do test my fuel and have not found any alcohol. last fill up was two days ago. I use Chevron and 76. I am in Ellensburg WA.


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Tom Jones
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503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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