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Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:48 am Post subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

At 10:47 PM 4/15/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>



 Thank you for the feedback...



 I found the files, can't wait to look them over thoroughly.



 I'm planning on one Pmag...I'm not sure if that qualifies as electrically dependent but I would guess yes.



 Is the new thinking that Z-12 is outdated? I worked my way through the book and really like Z-12. 	


   Z12 works . . . it's flying on a boat-load

   of TC SE aircraft. The only thing I would

   change is to replace the SB-1 regulator

   with a generic "ford" regulator. The

   AUX ALTernator runs for seconds during pre-flight

   and otherwise only when needed . . . which

   will be rare.



   LV warning and OV protection in the full-up

   SB-1 controller adds no remarkable value.

   The rudimentary regulator will be just

   fine running 'barefoot' for what should

   not exceed a few hours in the lifetime

   of the airplane.



   Figure Z101 depicts this recommendation

   as an alternative to Z12 which also

   offers the 3-layer functionality of

   Z13/8 and the previously offered

   Z13/20.  But Z12 as published is

   just fine if that's your wish.



 

 

   Bob . . .

MFleming

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 17

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

After looking over Z101, this is my first try at an architecture that would fit my mission.



Criticism will be taken as constructive, no offense taken.



Looking into my avionics suite, the Garmin GAD 27 controller should prevent brown outs so I eliminated the BO option.



The idea of having a clearance delivery bus to upload flight plans and well, get a clearance, really appealed to me so it's included. The strobes are on that bus so I would not walk away from the aircraft with the clearance delivery bus still energized.



Speaking to B&C today about their standby alternator had me include their standby regulator. The wiring of it is per their drawings. B&C say’s the standby alternator wired this way would run in parallel with the main alternator and would be excited and pick up the load when the main bus voltage fell below a predefined level and would need no pilot input. I’m not sure why they show a switch but I included it.



My plans are to have one Pmag or a SureFly mag replacement and a traditional mag, so that setup is included.



I’m sure I missed something and am looking forward to learning even more than I already have.

Z101-N526RM-B&C-REG.jpg

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_________________
Michael Fleming

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:30 pm Post subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

 	  Quote: 	
		  Speaking to B&C today about their standby alternator had me include their standby regulator. The wiring of it is per their drawings. B&C say’s the standby alternator wired this way would run in parallel with the main alternator and would be excited and pick up the load when the main bus voltage fell below a predefined level and would need no pilot input. I’m not sure why they show a switch but I included it. 	


   Yup, that's what it was designed to do. If $cash$ is

   no object, the system will certainly perform as

   advertised. I designed it.



   I suggest that all that automation has no direct

   benefit with respect to 'saving the day' in the

   event of main alternator failure. The majority

   of such systems will never be called upon to

   perform their intended task. Well maintained

   alternator up front is going to run TBO on

   the engine. The Z101 philosophy was, "yeah,

   I want that capability there and available with

   just the flip of a switch for the least

   cost of installation." But it's your choice.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  My plans are to have one Pmag or a SureFly mag replacement and a traditional mag, so that setup is included. 	


   What's your proposed fuel delivery system?



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  I’m sure I missed something and am looking forward to learning even more than I already have. 	


   If your engine isn't electrically dependent

   and you want the aux alternator will full

   compliment of bells/whistles, then Z12

   is your best fit.

  

   Clearance delivery option comes standard on the E-bus



 

   Bob . . .

MFleming

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 17

Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version.



Can some light be shed on the use of shunts as well as a Hall effect sensor?

I would like to have the information to my EFIS from each alternator. Do I have this drawn correctly?



Also, I was questioned on VAF about the Instrument panel ground bus and Avionics ground bus being tied together with the five 2AWG wires. It was also suggested they could be the same bus. I didn't have a ready answer.



EDIT: My fuel delivery will be a standard booster pump and fuel injection.

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_________________
Michael Fleming

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

It may be my brain that is missing the connection, but I don't see the electrical path that feeds bus power to the LR3. The pole called upon to switch bus power goes nowhere. 

Shouldn't the arc path of pole 5  be connected to terminal 4, replicating pole 2 and terminals 1 & 3?

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:35 am Post subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

At 05:12 PM 5/1/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>



 So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version. 	


   okay. dump the shunts. run BOTH b-leads trough

   the one hall effect sensor.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Can some light be shed on the use of shunts as well as a Hall effect sensor? 	


   don't need both



  	  Quote: 	
		  I would like to have the information to my EFIS from each alternator. Do I have this drawn correctly?



 Also, I was questioned on VAF about the Instrument panel ground bus and Avionics ground bus being tied together with the five 2AWG wires. It was also suggested they could be the same bus. I didn't have a ready answer. 	


   the 'panel' ground bus is normally on the cabin

   side of the firewall. I think I'm going to

   change the name to 'cabin ground bus'. The avionics

   ground is on the panel, centrally located to electro-

   whizzies that reside on the panel.



   Don't need a fuse block for the 'battery bus'. Put

   the clearance delivery relay right close to the

   battery contactor. Use a 3a inline fuse to feed

   the pmag.



   Getting ready to launch for Enid . . . we

   live 100 miles from everywhere . . . got some

   shopping to do.



   We'll be back tonight.



 

   Bob . . .

foghorn757(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

I’d suggest not posting your electrical ideas on VAF. You’ll get 100 different opinions. Here most folks are on the same sheet of music. These Z figures work and can be modified to meet your goals. 



Jeff Parker



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		  On May 2, 2020, at 12:40, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



  At 05:12 PM 5/1/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>



 So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version. 	


   okay. dump the shunts. run BOTH b-leads trough

   the one hall effect sensor.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Can some light be shed on the use of shunts as well as a Hall effect sensor? 	


   don't need both



  	  Quote: 	
		  I would like to have the information to my EFIS from each alternator. Do I have this drawn correctly?



 Also, I was questioned on VAF about the Instrument panel ground bus and Avionics ground bus being tied together with the five 2AWG wires. It was also suggested they could be the same bus. I didn't have a ready answer. 	


   the 'panel' ground bus is normally on the cabin

   side of the firewall. I think I'm going to

   change the name to 'cabin ground bus'. The avionics

   ground is on the panel, centrally located to electro-

   whizzies that reside on the panel.



   Don't need a fuse block for the 'battery bus'. Put

   the clearance delivery relay right close to the

   battery contactor. Use a 3a inline fuse to feed

   the pmag.



   Getting ready to launch for Enid . . . we

   live 100 miles from everywhere . . . got some

   shopping to do.



   We'll be back tonight.



 

   Bob . . .

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 166
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

 	  jonlaury wrote: 	
		  ... I don't see the electrical path that feeds bus power to the LR3. The pole called upon to switch bus power goes nowhere... 	




That's a progressive three-position switch, off, battery contactor on, battery contactor and main alternator on.



Ref the paragraph heading "Switches" in Chapter 1, and notes 15 and 22 in Appendix Z of Aeroelectric Connection book.

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:12 pm Post subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

At 05:12 PM 5/1/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>



 So I took your advice and crafted a Z-12 version.

 	


   <SNIP>



  	  Quote: 	
		  --------

 Michael Fleming

 	


   Michael,



   Did about 200 miles of 'asphalt engineering'

   yesterday on this thread. Picked up some parts

   for a friend's welder/generator in Enid. His

   Chute is electro-hydraulic and he had some

   cattle to work today



   I've incorporated some of your input along with

   musings from the List and my own starry-eyed

   stare down the highway.



  https://tinyurl.com/y9n57vlw



   This drawing needs some notes to explain

   on some new ideas:



   Z12 lite could be pretty simple. No optional

   busses. Dual alternator dependability combined

   with a dutifully maintained battery would

   take you far and in confidence. This drawing

   illustrates and preserves the aux alternator

   installation as offered by B&C.



   Depending on proposed accessories and operating

   modes one might wish to add battery or

   clearance delivery/endurance busses. Purely

   optional . . . if you gotta use for one,

   add it.



   Question: your drawing shows a fused feeder off

   the battery to the p-mag. What is the rational

   for utilizing this source as opposed to simply

   tying it to the main bus?  What is the

   current draw of this feature on the p-mag? 



 

   Bob . . .

MFleming

Joined: 31 Oct 2017
Posts: 17

Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

Bob,



Well I though we were isolated living in Alaska back in the day but southern Kansas looks pretty  far from welder parts ;- ) 

I was visiting Oklahoma City, Bartlesville, Fort Smith and Independence last fall...lots of driving.



Thank you for spending time thinking about this little venture of mine. Unfortunately the link takes me to the AeroElectric Connection page but no file. Looked in the .pdf folder but no luck.



Not sure of the Pmag current draw but the manual says to use a 3amp pull-able breaker. To be honest, the depiction of the fused feeder was just copied from Z-12. I was thinking if things really went bad with the contacter open and a mag dead the Pmag would still be operating.



Looking forward to seeing the drawing.

-M

_________________
Michael Fleming

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 4:00 pm Post subject: Z-12 Architecture, Back-Up Alternator Wiring

At 03:54 PM 5/4/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "MFleming" <sagriver(at)icloud.com>



 Bob,



 Well I though we were isolated living in Alaska back

 in the day but southern Kansas looks pretty far from

 welder parts ;- ) 	


   Actually, his problem was with compatibility

   of an extension cord that was going to run

   from his Welder/GenSet to the pump on the

   chute.  Needed a somewhat rare 50A-4Wire

   plug. But even the smallest necessity can

   hold up a expensive operation! On

   several occasions I've made trips to metropolitan

   supply sources for relatively trivial items

   that would hold a $1000/day cattle operation hostage!



  	  Quote: 	
		  Thank you for spending time thinking about this little venture of mine.

 Unfortunately the link takes me to the AeroElectric Connection page but

 no file. Looked in the .pdf folder but no luck. 	


   Sorry 'bout that. I had posted the wrong file so

   even if the link was good, the resulting

   download was not. Here's a better shot at

   it.



  https://tinyurl.com/ydbc5xqt



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Not sure of the Pmag current draw but the manual says to use a 3amp pull-able

 breaker. To be honest, the depiction of the fused feeder was just copied

 from Z-12. I was thinking if things really went bad with the contacter

 open and a mag dead the Pmag would still be operating. 	


   We're talking about a P-Mag, not an E-Mag . . . right?

   P-mags have built in alternators. As I recall, the battery

   assist was to support cranking and hand-propping

   the airplane.



   Haven't talked with those guys in a long time. I'll

   call down there tomorrow and get my knowledge nugget

   updated.



 

   Bob . . .

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