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Exhaust springs source?

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

My fine classic was missing one of its exhaust springs, and ive been having a hard time sourcing (been using regular springs as a stop gap).



Any suggestions?



Thx!



Pic is what iâ€™m looking for.

image0.jpeg

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JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 388
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Exhaust springs source?

Sorry, can't help with replacement springs but a couple snapped on my CKT exhaust. After replacing them, I copied what someone else does to cut down high frequency vibration. First put safety locking wire through the spring centre as usual and secure it around the spring attachment hooks, to prevent broken springs falling onto Scotland and perhaps choking cows.



Wrap another piece of locking wire right around the exhaust header tube to include and bisect both springs on either side, so that tightening the wire causes both springs to bow in slightly towards the exhaust tube. Then smear an approx 1/4 inch wide streak of high temperature silicone along the length of the spring, on the side furthest away from the exhaust tube.



So far this plan is working for me, with no broken springs in over a year.

SPURPURA

Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Posts: 68
Location: KAPV

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Exhaust springs source?

Try McMaster Carr, they are great for any hardware.

_________________
N951EU - Tri-gear & 912ULS, N77EU- Mono & 914
I'D RATHER HAVE A BOTTLE IN FRONT OF ME THAN A FRONTAL LABOTAMY.

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:19 am Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

Thx Bud etal,



Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures?



Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



[quote] On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

I have always been perplexed by the need for springs on the original Europa Classic exhaust system. Due to the design the exhaust can neither move forward or aft nor up or down. Number one and two cylinder pipes counteract the up and down, and the number three and four cylinder pipes counteract the forward and aft.I have had no problems with my system for the last 20 years and 900hrs. The springs remain in place but to me, they are useless.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 19/11/2021, at 6:42 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿Thx Bud etal,

Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures?

Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



ï»¿      Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure.

 

 

  Buy quality stainless springs that will pull about 1/2", put a 1/4" bead of high temp silicone to dampen vibration, run a .040 safety wire loop just snug to retain pieces and prevent components from failing to seal and also to prevent damage and dropped objects.

 

 

  See my troubleshooting guide.

 

 

  Best Regards,

 

  Bud Yerly

 

 

 Get Outlook for Android

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>

 Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 3:49:28 PM

 To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Exhaust springs source?  

 

   My fine classic was missing one of its exhaust springs, and ive been having a hard time sourcing (been using regular springs as a stop gap).

 

 Any suggestions?

 

 Thx!

 

 Pic is what iâ€™m looking for.

 

 

 <image0.jpeg>

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

Hi Tim,

My sentiments as well.

912S?  Very Encouraging data, but makes me wonder why mine have cracked. Engine is running smoothly, and prop dynamically balanced.

Cheers!

PeteZ

(In Canuckstan)



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:04 PM, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿I have always been perplexed by the need for springs on the original Europa Classic exhaust system. Due to the design the exhaust can neither move forward or aft nor up or down. Number one and two cylinder pipes counteract the up and down, and the number three and four cylinder pipes counteract the forward and aft.I have had no problems with my system for the last 20 years and 900hrs. The springs remain in place but to me, they are useless.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 19/11/2021, at 6:42 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿Thx Bud etal,

Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures?

Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



ï»¿      Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure.

 

 

  Buy quality stainless springs that will pull about 1/2", put a 1/4" bead of high temp silicone to dampen vibration, run a .040 safety wire loop just snug to retain pieces and prevent components from failing to seal and also to prevent damage and dropped objects.

 

 

  See my troubleshooting guide.

 

 

  Best Regards,

 

  Bud Yerly

 

 

 Get Outlook for Android

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>

 Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 3:49:28 PM

 To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Exhaust springs source?  

 

   My fine classic was missing one of its exhaust springs, and ive been having a hard time sourcing (been using regular springs as a stop gap).

 

 Any suggestions?

 

 Thx!

 

 Pic is what iâ€™m looking for.

 

 

 <image0.jpeg>

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

Pete,,Yes 912S. Check engine mounts for wear and exhaust engine lugs correct torque?

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 19/11/2021, at 7:33 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿Hi Tim,

My sentiments as well.

912S?  Very Encouraging data, but makes me wonder why mine have cracked. Engine is running smoothly, and prop dynamically balanced.

Cheers!

PeteZ

(In Canuckstan)



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:04 PM, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿I have always been perplexed by the need for springs on the original Europa Classic exhaust system. Due to the design the exhaust can neither move forward or aft nor up or down. Number one and two cylinder pipes counteract the up and down, and the number three and four cylinder pipes counteract the forward and aft.I have had no problems with my system for the last 20 years and 900hrs. The springs remain in place but to me, they are useless.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 19/11/2021, at 6:42 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿Thx Bud etal,

Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures?

Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



ï»¿      Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure.

 

 

  Buy quality stainless springs that will pull about 1/2", put a 1/4" bead of high temp silicone to dampen vibration, run a .040 safety wire loop just snug to retain pieces and prevent components from failing to seal and also to prevent damage and dropped objects.

 

 

  See my troubleshooting guide.

 

 

  Best Regards,

 

  Bud Yerly

 

 

 Get Outlook for Android

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>

 Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 3:49:28 PM

 To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Exhaust springs source?  

 

   My fine classic was missing one of its exhaust springs, and ive been having a hard time sourcing (been using regular springs as a stop gap).

 

 Any suggestions?

 

 Thx!

 

 Pic is what iâ€™m looking for.

 

 

 <image0.jpeg>

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

Mounts were/are good.

I will check the torque tho.  I guess the inference is that there should be movement possible against the head port?  I find that idea to be concerningâ€¦..with the aluminum seat expected to be quickly wearing.

Thx again!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:46 PM, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿Pete,,Yes 912S. Check engine mounts for wear and exhaust engine lugs correct torque?

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 19/11/2021, at 7:33 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿Hi Tim,

My sentiments as well.

912S?  Very Encouraging data, but makes me wonder why mine have cracked. Engine is running smoothly, and prop dynamically balanced.

Cheers!

PeteZ

(In Canuckstan)



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:04 PM, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿I have always been perplexed by the need for springs on the original Europa Classic exhaust system. Due to the design the exhaust can neither move forward or aft nor up or down. Number one and two cylinder pipes counteract the up and down, and the number three and four cylinder pipes counteract the forward and aft.I have had no problems with my system for the last 20 years and 900hrs. The springs remain in place but to me, they are useless.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 19/11/2021, at 6:42 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿Thx Bud etal,

Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures?

Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:



ï»¿      Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure.

 

 

  Buy quality stainless springs that will pull about 1/2", put a 1/4" bead of high temp silicone to dampen vibration, run a .040 safety wire loop just snug to retain pieces and prevent components from failing to seal and also to prevent damage and dropped objects.

 

 

  See my troubleshooting guide.

 

 

  Best Regards,

 

  Bud Yerly

 

 

 Get Outlook for Android

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com>

 Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 3:49:28 PM

 To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Exhaust springs source?  

 

   My fine classic was missing one of its exhaust springs, and ive been having a hard time sourcing (been using regular springs as a stop gap).

 

 Any suggestions?

 

 Thx!

 

 Pic is what iâ€™m looking for.

 

 

 <image0.jpeg>

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 388
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Exhaust springs source?

When I still had the Classic FWFWD installation with original exhaust, I also experienced 2 x cracked clean off exhaust flanges. So I suspended the silencer by means of 2 jubilee clips, one around each of #3 and #4 exhaust tubes ( I think? ), close to where they enter the muffler box. Tucked under the clips were short strips of steel bent into suitable hooks with one hole for a bolt in their upper ends, which "peeped over" the top of the muffler and were bent about 45 degrees towards the crankcase.



I fashioned two small thick aluminium plates with 2 holes in each; one hole large enough for the bottom engine mount bolt which screws into the crankcase and another small hole for a bolt; same size as the bolt holes in the hooks. On each side of the engine I used longish straps of steel ( 1/2 " wide, same as used for the hooks ), with a hole in each end of the straps.



So there you have it! On each side of the engine are 4 components weighing almost nothing. Aluminium plate fastened by the lower engine bolt, narrow steel strap with bolt holes at each end, hook with hole in one end to attach to steel strap and jubilee clip. Plus of course 2 bolts with stiff-nuts.



I continued to fly my Classic for another 3 or 4 years, with no further broken flanges.



[quote="peterz(at)zutrasoft.com"]Thx Bud etal,



Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures?



Cheers and thx!

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:57 pm Post subject: Exhaust springs source?

Pete, 

I agree, the pipe attachment to the head should not move or leak exhaust. 

I hang the exhaust loose on the studs with the bolts finger snug. 

I then check the movement and clearance of the exhaust. On a Classic, the unit  is pretty solid.  The slip joints are quite tight.  I have found on 96EG the pipes were very slightly out of alignment and we had to pull it down and to get a good exhaust to head fit.  The front exhaust was rather stiff as if the pipes were welded a little out of alignment.  We tweaked the angles a bit and it was acceptable but we still had to lap the pipe to head joint. 

  

It is true that the Classic Exhaust is heavy and unsupported by anything but  the heads.  This is quite disturbing for many of us that most mufflers just hang on the downpipes. 

If I do build a support, I do not disturb the case bolts as there is a 50/50  chance for an oil leak.  (For me a 50/50 chance is 100% chance of getting it wrong.) 

I use the engine frame attach bolts personally and a simple diagonal brace as  well as the two vertical ones are my go to support attach points.  You have to find something.. 

Generally, a light 1/8 inch aluminum strap or 1/16 inch steel is more than sufficient.  The attachment to the actual muffler will be most fun.  I have my welder weld on an attach point. 

The vertical hang on the muffler pipes (properly torqued and secure) is sufficient  normally as a muffler support.  The back of the muffler on a Classic is quite heavy, and the muffler can develop some motion side to side and that will not be good as it will cause eventual cracking. 

Any welded bungs for EGT or holes can cause a crack.  These bungs/ holes are critical inspection points. 

  

I have any exhaust component welded by my certified welder, as he builds racing  components for a living.  Exhaust systems welded around the pipe tend to crack unless heat treated or a strengthening strap is added to improve the mass in an area.  The stainless weld rod is also important so I tend to leave it for the pros. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete

 Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2021 1:51 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust springs source? 

 

 

   

Mounts were/are good. 

  

  

  

I will check the torque tho.  I guess the inference is that there should be movement possible against the head port?  I find that idea  to be concerningâ€¦..with the aluminum seat expected to be quickly wearing. 

  

  

  

Thx again! 

  

PeteZ 

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  	  Quote: 	
		   

On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:46 PM, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:   

ï»¿Pete,,  

Yes 912S. Check engine mounts for wear and exhaust engine lugs correct torque? 

  

Tim  

Sent from my iPad  

Tim Ward 

  

12 Waiwetu Street,  

  

Fendalton,  

  

Christchurch, 8052 

  

New Zealand. 

  

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)  

  

021 0640221 

 

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  	  Quote: 	
		   

On 19/11/2021, at 7:33 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:   

ï»¿  

Hi Tim, 

  

  

  

My sentiments as well. 

  

  

  

912S?  Very Encouraging data, but makes me wonder why mine have cracked. Engine is running smoothly, and prop dynamically balanced. 

  

  

  

Cheers! 

  

PeteZ 

  

(In Canuckstan) 

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  	  Quote: 	
		   

On Nov 18, 2021, at 1:04 PM, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:   

ï»¿I have always been perplexed by the need for springs on the original Europa Classic exhaust system. Due to the design the exhaust can  neither move forward or aft nor up or down. Number one and two cylinder pipes counteract the up and down, and the number three and four cylinder pipes counteract the forward and aft.  

I have had no problems with my system for the last 20 years and 900hrs. The springs remain in place but to me, they are useless. 

  

Cheers, 

  

Tim  

Sent from my iPad  

Tim Ward 

  

12 Waiwetu Street,  

  

Fendalton,  

  

Christchurch, 8052 

  

New Zealand. 

  

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)  

  

021 0640221 

 

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  	  Quote: 	
		   

On 19/11/2021, at 6:42 AM, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:   

ï»¿  

Thx Bud etal, 

  

  

  

Nuther question:  Iâ€™m repairing my second cracked clean off exhaust flange. . Im surprised the heavy classic muffler is not suspended  from the engine-side frame. Anyone else see these failures? 

  

  

  

Cheers and thx! 

  

PeteZ 

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>  	  Quote: 	
		   

On Nov 18, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:   

ï»¿   

Look to motorcycle supply sources or shops.  The  Classic and XS exhaust is prone to exhaust spring resonance fatigue, corrosion, weakening and failure. 

  

Buy quality stainless springs that will pull about  1/2", put a 1/4" bead of high temp silicone to dampen vibration, run a .040 safety wire loop just snug to retain pieces and prevent components from failing to seal and also to prevent damage and dropped objects. 

  

See my troubleshooting guide. 

  

Best Regards, 

  

Bud Yerly 

  

  

  

Get  Outlook for Android 

   

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>

 Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 3:49:28 PM

 To: europa-list <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust springs source?   

  

 

    

My fine classic was missing one of its exhaust springs, and ive been having a hard time sourcing (been using regular springs as a stop  gap).

 

 Any suggestions?

 

 Thx!

 

 Pic is what iâ€™m looking for. 

 

   

<image0.jpeg>

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