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cgod(at)cebridge.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Oh Wisdom of the List, I call upon your knowledge!
Right wing shows 3 gallons thru the sight tube, but the fuel filter is empty. Does any one know why this could be? Is there gas baffled in one section of the tank that does not reach? I am unfamiliar with what the tank looks like since I am not the builder. The fuel filters also seem to have a hard time filling up in flight and only stay half full when flying. I can watch the gas coming in but most times it seems to be only a trickle.
Any solutions or suggestions?
Michael Stanard
[quote][b]
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Michael,
I guess the first thing I would do is drain a bit of gas, fold the wing and
pull the finger strainers in the wing tank. If that checks out, I think I
'd replace the fuel line from the wing tanks to the filter and to the header
tank.
It sounds to me like a fuel restriction somewhere. Are you using the Mil
Spec 6000 fuel line. It has in some instances swollen shut on some using
MoGas. Also there was one post many years ago of a guy that pinched off his
oil hose, as I recall, with a misaligned hose clamp that had slipped off the
barb.
What airplane are you flying? I don't see you in the database.
Lowell
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Michael,
First, do every thing that Lowell said. If you have the MIL-6000 black rubber fuel line, replace it before you do anything else. If every thing works out to be good with no obstructions, consider Vapor Lock. I worked on my hanger mates riding lawn mower recently. His fuel tank will be at about 1/2 and the engine goes dead. The fuel filter is empty. Take off the inlet line to the filter and fuel starts to flow freely. Reconnect to filter and the engine will start and run the rest of the fuel. Happens every time without fail. For some reason, his system is vapor locking and I haven't had a chance to figure it out.
Auto fuel is much more likely to vapor lock than 100LL. Look at any clear filter on your car or lawnmower and it will always appear half full of fuel. The other half which looks like air is vapor. You may have some strange vapor locking like my hanger mates lawnmower. I think his problem has something to do with the large body fuel filter that's installed or it's location to the fuel tank. Like I said, do all Lowell said and then consider a strange vapor locking problem.
Don Smythe
[quote] ---
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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I've seen this happen too, Don....the half-full clear filter thing,
that is. I expected to see this on my plane with a clear filter in the
supply lines from each wing tank. But they are both very full and very
clear. I'm sure it has something to do with the venting of the header
tank up to the wing tank. This vent line on my plane is full of fuel,
and will be as long as fuel is present in the tanks, and the shutoff
valves in each supply line is open. I have just gone over 200 hours on
my plane, and no problems yet...knocking on wood. : )
Lynn
On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 04:14 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
[quote] Michael,
First, do every thing that Lowell said. If you have the MIL-6000
black rubber fuel line, replace it before you do anything else. If
every thing works out to be good with no obstructions, consider Vapor
Lock. I worked on my hanger mates riding lawn mower recently. His
fuel tank will be at about 1/2 and the engine goes dead. The fuel
filter is empty. Take off the inlet line to the filter and fuel
starts to flow freely. Reconnect to filter and the engine will start
and run the rest of the fuel. Happens every time without fail. For
some reason, his system is vapor locking and I haven't had a chance to
figure it out.
Auto fuel is much more likely to vapor lock than 100LL. Look at
any clear filter on your car or lawnmower and it will always appear
half full of fuel. The other half which looks like air is vapor. You
may have some strange vapor locking like my hanger mates lawnmower. I
think his problem has something to do with the large body fuel filter
that's installed or it's location to the fuel tank. Like I said, do
all Lowell said and then consider a strange vapor locking problem.
Don Smythe
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Lynn,
I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank. They are
mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor (appearing not quite
full). I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal between the main shutoff
and the carbs. Since that one is mounted horizontal, it always shows more
vapor than the vertical ones. I strongly believe this to be a case of vapor
in auto gas.
After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to vapor
lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox system could do
the same thing. I feel it has something to do with the physical size of the
filter and/or possible location in the line. I don't think the vent on the
header has anything to do with this type situation. You can fly safely with
the header vent shut off completely (Avids did/do). As long as the filler
caps are supplying air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the
lines, fuel should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???
Don Smythe
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Don-
I have almost exactly the same configuration as you, except that I
can't see my horizontal 3rd filter. It is under my center
console...maybe I should install a window to have a look at it
occasionally. That one is after the main shutoff and the aux. electric
pump, which I never/rarely ever use. It's a Facet, and it allows
gravity flow through it...or perhaps more properly, allows the engine's
mechanical pump to pull through it, although it does flow through via
gravity. All 3 filters are 5/16" in my system.
Lynn
On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 05:11 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
[quote]
Lynn,
I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank. They
are mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor (appearing
not quite full). I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal between
the main shutoff and the carbs. Since that one is mounted horizontal,
it always shows more vapor than the vertical ones. I strongly believe
this to be a case of vapor in auto gas.
After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to
vapor lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox
system could do the same thing. I feel it has something to do with
the physical size of the filter and/or possible location in the line.
I don't think the vent on the header has anything to do with this type
situation. You can fly safely with the header vent shut off
completely (Avids did/do). As long as the filler caps are supplying
air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the lines, fuel
should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???
Don Smythe
---
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Fox5flyer Guest
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Regarding these Purolator fuel filters, I seem to recall some time
back about a member who was having similar flow problems and also had
the same filters. Upon dismantling the filters he found them to be
partially plugged with tiny fibers that he determined to have come
from the wing tanks and were inhibiting the fuel flow. They were
possibly fiberglass fibers, but that wasn't confirmed as I recall.
He replaced the filters and no more problems. This happened several
years ago. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on it.
Deke
Subject: Re: Ever had this happen?
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:34:40 -0500
Quote: | Don-
I have almost exactly the same configuration as you, except that I
can't see my horizontal 3rd filter. It is under my center
console...maybe I should install a window to have a look at it
occasionally. That one is after the main shutoff and the aux.
electric
pump, which I never/rarely ever use. It's a Facet, and it allows
gravity flow through it...or perhaps more properly, allows the
engine's
mechanical pump to pull through it, although it does flow through via
gravity. All 3 filters are 5/16" in my system.
Lynn
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[quote]On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 05:11 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>
>
> Lynn,
> I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank.
They
> are mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor
(appearing
> not quite full). I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal
between
> the main shutoff and the carbs. Since that one is mounted
horizontal,
> it always shows more vapor than the vertical ones. I strongly
believe
> this to be a case of vapor in auto gas.
> After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to
> vapor lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox
> system could do the same thing. I feel it has something to do with
> the physical size of the filter and/or possible location in the
line.
> I don't think the vent on the header has anything to do with this
type
> situation. You can fly safely with the header vent shut off
> completely (Avids did/do). As long as the filler caps are
supplying
> air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the lines,
fuel
> should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???
>
> Don Smythe
> ---
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Deke,
I recall that report. As I remember, the person who reported said they
were fiberglass fragments that were invisible in the filters with fuel.
Good reason to change filters "frequently" during the first few tanks of
fuel. I think this problem would have developed with just about any type
filters.
Don Smythe
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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I recall reading that, Deke. I think that was about the time I got
nervous and called Frank Miller and got the lowdown on flushing and
Kreeming my tanks, which I did. I've used the Purolator filters in
everything from a Ford tractor to a lawn mower to my airplane, and
loved every one of them. In the case of the tiny fibers, they would
have clogged any type of filter, I think, and just having Purolator
filters wouldn't have caused the problem, I don't think. In effect, the
Purolator filters act in a similar fashion to the finger strainers in
our wings...they provide a large area of surface in which to trap
contaminants, and in most cases, the contaminants can be seen...not so
with the tiny fibers from that members' experience, it sounds.
Lynn
On Saturday, November 25, 2006, at 03:41 PM, fox5flyer wrote:
[quote]
Regarding these Purolator fuel filters, I seem to recall some time
back about a member who was having similar flow problems and also had
the same filters. Upon dismantling the filters he found them to be
partially plugged with tiny fibers that he determined to have come
from the wing tanks and were inhibiting the fuel flow. They were
possibly fiberglass fibers, but that wasn't confirmed as I recall.
He replaced the filters and no more problems. This happened several
years ago. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on it.
Deke
Subject: Re: Ever had this happen?
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:34:40 -0500
> Don-
> I have almost exactly the same configuration as you, except that I
> can't see my horizontal 3rd filter. It is under my center
> console...maybe I should install a window to have a look at it
> occasionally. That one is after the main shutoff and the aux.
> electric
> pump, which I never/rarely ever use. It's a Facet, and it allows
> gravity flow through it...or perhaps more properly, allows the
> engine's
> mechanical pump to pull through it, although it does flow through via
>
> gravity. All 3 filters are 5/16" in my system.
>
> Lynn
> On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 05:11 PM, Don Smythe wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Lynn,
>> I have the clear glass Purolator filters on each wing tank.
> They
>> are mounted vertically and always show just a tad of vapor
> (appearing
>> not quite full). I have a third Purolator mounted horizontal
> between
>> the main shutoff and the carbs. Since that one is mounted
> horizontal,
>> it always shows more vapor than the vertical ones. I strongly
> believe
>> this to be a case of vapor in auto gas.
>> After seeing my hanger mates lawn mower completely quit due to
>> vapor lock it has always made me a little concerned that a Kitfox
>> system could do the same thing. I feel it has something to do with
>
>> the physical size of the filter and/or possible location in the
> line.
>> I don't think the vent on the header has anything to do with this
> type
>> situation. You can fly safely with the header vent shut off
>> completely (Avids did/do). As long as the filler caps are
> supplying
>> air to the wing tanks and there are no obstruction in the lines,
> fuel
>> should flow (except for maybe vapor lock)???
>>
>> Don Smythe
>> ---
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho Guest
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Hi Michael,
One thing I didn't see mentioned is for you to do a
gravity flow check to make sure you have plenty of
fuel flow without the pump. This is usually part of
the testing before initial flight. You need to
disconnect the fuel line before the carb(s) and time
the flow rate in gallons per minute. Make sure it is
flowing fast enough to feed the engine. Not a good
idea to count on a single pump to keep the engine
running.
One of the accidents I read about before flying mine
was a crash that resulted from a wire coming off a
fuel pump on takeoff. Engine went rapidly lean,
banged once and quit. KitFox crashed for one broken
wire joint!
I put in 2 pumps and did a flow check as well. Still
don't like my system, so I will rebuild it and check
it for more reliability.
You should check yours and fix any obstructions, if
the flow is too slow by gravity. Trace the system
backwards from the carbs and fix everything that stops
the fuel. In your case, there is certainly something
slowing the flow before the filter, so fix that. But
test the system at the carb too and make sure there
isn't any more problems down stream.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- MA Stanard <cgod(at)cebridge.net> wrote:
Quote: | Oh Wisdom of the List, I call upon your knowledge!
|
Quote: | Right wing shows 3 gallons thru the sight tube, but
the fuel filter is empty. Does any one know why
this could be? Is there gas baffled in one section
of the tank that does not reach? I am unfamiliar
with what the tank looks like since I am not the
builder. The fuel filters also seem to have a hard
time filling up in flight and only stay half full
when flying. I can watch the gas coming in but most
times it seems to be only a trickle.
Any solutions or suggestions?
Michael Stanard
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Fox5flyer Guest
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Correct Lynn. What I was attempting to illustrate was that the tiny
fibers were nearly invisible and it wasn't until the owner opened
them up and saw the fibers that he found the cause of low flow. Any
filter would have clogged the same way, but what fooled him was that
the Purolators are clear and with no visible debris in them his
attention went elsewhere until someone suggested that he take them
apart. Nothing wrong with the Purolators. The fact that they
weren't filling was what alerted him to the problem. Opaque filters
wouldn't have given that clue.
Deke
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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If the pilot was using a felt (Chamois) to filter his fuel, it won't pass
water, some of the animal hair used to make felt will eventually come off
and it will be dropped into the fuel tanks. This was quite normal and still
is for those using felt to filter their fuel. There usually isn't a problem
with it as the screens in the gascolator will catch it. Of course you will
want to clean the gascolator every 50 hr.
Noel
[quote] --
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_________________ Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Before each flight I drip my gascolator. That is the lowest part of the
fuel system and should have a pretty good pressure on it. Of course I have
a high wing aircraft. Low wing aircraft may have two gascolators. One in
each tank sump. Or if the bottom of the cowl is slightly lower than the
tanks then one as low as possible may work.
Noel
[quote] --
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Kitfox III-A
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho Guest
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nandrand(at)xtra.co.nz Guest
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Hi Team.
I must point out that "chamois" is not "felt" but goat skin
and has been used as a fuel filter for a 100 years!! "Felt" is compacted
fibres of cloth and come in various thicknesses. I hope this don't upset
anybody, but as my grand-dad said, we should learn something new every
day!!!!!!!!!!!
Fly Safe Regards Noel
---
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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I haven't commented on this subject, but I felt (no pun intended) that
there must be some local use of the word "felt" that is confusing. I
have read that bush pilots used chamois to filter their fuel when
pouring from cans....apparently trusting that which is pumped via hoses.
Lynn
On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 12:23 AM, noel anderson wrote:
[quote]
<nandrand(at)xtra.co.nz>
Hi Team.
I must point out that "chamois" is not "felt" but goat
skin and has been used as a fuel filter for a 100 years!! "Felt" is
compacted fibres of cloth and come in various thicknesses. I hope this
don't upset anybody, but as my grand-dad said, we should learn
something new every day!!!!!!!!!!!
Fly Safe Regards Noel
---
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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Been there, done that. Used an old Fedora I wore fishing in my teen age
years. The plus side of it is it helps to keep the flies off. My new
Aussie Akubra doesn't see any fuel.
Noel
[quote] --
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Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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When I was working the AMO in gander all our pilots swore up and down on a
small mountain of bibles that they were using a "Chamios" to filter their
fuel. I've washed enough cars to know what a chamois is, not to mention
how much better a real chamois is at removing water from your just washed
chariot.
Back to the topic.
When I saw the first "Chamois" filter I was surprised to find out that what
they were actually using was a felt. One of the properties of felt is it
stops the flow of water while passing gasoline. They use it (with tar ) for
the roofs of houses and in all the old dusters ( Westerns ) the Roy Rogers
always gave his horse a drink out of his ten gallon hat and John Wayne must
have dumped a thousand gallons out of his hat in his career.
Felt may have a quantity of cloth fibre in it but originally it was made
from the hair of pelts. Canada sent shiploads of beaver pelts to England in
it's early years to make felt hats. The Oz Akubra hats are made from rabbit
fur and are OZ answer to the Stetson.
As you say Chamois is actually a goat skin specifically form a Chamois ....
A very soft skin which shares the felt ability to block water. That's why
they used to carry water in goat skins
So if the "Chamois" you are using to filter your fuel is really a "Felt' Be
aware that some of the hair that makes the felt can come of and be caught in
your gascolator. It only takes five minutes to clean out a gascolator and
once every fifty hours or so isn't too much to do.... Just clean it when
you swap out your plugs. Don't forget the lockwire. Do it once or twice
and you will be surprised how easy it is to do a good job of lockwiring.
For the purpose of the topic cops... All the above is in reference to the
safe operation of Kitfox aircraft.
Noel
[quote] --
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Kitfox III-A
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: Ever had this happen? |
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I don't think that even the most radical of "topic cops" would bust you
for this post, Noel, and believe me I've been busted, so I know!
Lynn
do not archive
On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 09:20 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
[quote]
When I was working the AMO in gander all our pilots swore up and down
on a
small mountain of bibles that they were using a "Chamios" to filter
their
fuel. I've washed enough cars to know what a chamois is, not to
mention
how much better a real chamois is at removing water from your just
washed
chariot.
Back to the topic.
When I saw the first "Chamois" filter I was surprised to find out that
what
they were actually using was a felt. One of the properties of felt is
it
stops the flow of water while passing gasoline. They use it (with tar
) for
the roofs of houses and in all the old dusters ( Westerns ) the Roy
Rogers
always gave his horse a drink out of his ten gallon hat and John Wayne
must
have dumped a thousand gallons out of his hat in his career.
Felt may have a quantity of cloth fibre in it but originally it was
made
from the hair of pelts. Canada sent shiploads of beaver pelts to
England in
it's early years to make felt hats. The Oz Akubra hats are made from
rabbit
fur and are OZ answer to the Stetson.
As you say Chamois is actually a goat skin specifically form a Chamois
....
A very soft skin which shares the felt ability to block water. That's
why
they used to carry water in goat skins
So if the "Chamois" you are using to filter your fuel is really a
"Felt' Be
aware that some of the hair that makes the felt can come of and be
caught in
your gascolator. It only takes five minutes to clean out a gascolator
and
once every fifty hours or so isn't too much to do.... Just clean it
when
you swap out your plugs. Don't forget the lockwire. Do it once or
twice
and you will be surprised how easy it is to do a good job of
lockwiring.
For the purpose of the topic cops... All the above is in reference to
the
safe operation of Kitfox aircraft.
Noel
> --
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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jimcarriere
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 22
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Ever had this happen? |
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[quote="Float Flyr"]
When I saw the first "Chamois" filter I was surprised to find out that what
they were actually using was a felt. One of the properties of felt is it
stops the flow of water while passing gasoline.
[quote] --[/quote]
Noel, I had an old car that used felt for the crankshaft seal. This was old-fashioned engineering but apparently common. I understand those seals would give about a year or two of good service, so rubber and/or silicone shaft seals must have been quite an improvement back in the day.
Do not archive
Jim in NW FL
Series 7 in progress
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_________________ Jim in NW FL
Kitfox Series 7 in progress
Rotec R2800 |
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